Matthew Weiss, Entrepreneur and Filmmaker
Matthew Weiss' main business is running a Manhattan-based law firm that fights 1,000s of traffic tickets per year throughout New York State. Six years ago, he started making his first film and it was released last year. It's called "Man In Red Bandana" and is about the inspirational and courageous story of 9/11 hero Welles Remy Crowther. Matthew is working on completing his second film called Vault, a feature about the 1975 Bonded Vault heist.
You can find "Man In Red Bandana" on Amazon here:
AUTOMATED EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Welcome everyone. Since the scaling up services podcast I'm respectful. I'm your host today we have a very special guest friend colleague fellow your Matthew Weiss. And we're going to talk little bit about the business. He started a couple of years ago a few years ago and how he grew it and how he successfully got himself out of the day today and he can focus more on some of the legacy work he does. We're going to hear a little bit about that. But Matt thank you for being on the program.
[00:00:25] My pleasure. So why don't we start Alec I've got to start with a little bit of the background about your business how you kind of started sort of the early stages how do you get into it and what did it do. What prompted it's all for what people.
[00:00:37] Sure. So I graduated law school and worked at a court for two years and then a big law firm for another two years and during that second year at that big law firm a friend of mine from law school who was out on the zone kept calling me and asking me to join him. And he was looking for a partner and looking for synergies that we had. He was a good rainmaker and I was good at tech to be getting the work done and building practice. And so after four or five calls and think about it I realized that this big law firm after six seven years would spit me out replace me by someone cheaper and it will be difficult for me to get a partnership at this firm because they were from big clients villages towns public companies and those are very difficult to know. As a young 27 year old trying to get to join you know your firm. So I gave my notice we opened up shop and we had not much business but there was one lawyer who was doing a fair amount of criminal work and traffic work and because the criminal cases were higher fees we were covering his traffic work for him.
[00:01:43] So it would literally be a traffic court on her feet all day covering these cases. But over time we were starting to develop our own reputation and our own clientele. Because when you're in court and someone walks in and they're anxious they're nervous they need help. They see someone dressed like a lawyer. They approach you and they say you know are you a lawyer and some help. And so it got to a point where we were building up a fair amount of. I was giving them more business cards a month that have in my life's little Abath or a box of business cards a month and I've never since those days given that somebody's business cards because you know someone would mean to you do their case if you want to adopt them with a decent result they would you give them 10 or 20 cards. They were given to their friends right. And so we were still helping that other attorney.
[00:02:28] But now we're doing our work and doing this or the lawyers work and then at some point it became like Yeah we'll help you because we have so much more of it because we were there every day building this brand and reputation now and over time I realize that I didn't want to be on my feet doing that every day day to day grunty you know because it's it's hard work right and you know for 20 30 years of being doing that would be difficult. And what I did see is that there were four or five other lawyers pretty much everyone in the New York City traffic courts that were doing the same thing where they were in court regularly. And so I realize well since they're there anyway they're happy for my business. Why don't I just start a firm where I could market and promote advertise Yellow Book ads things like that and get the business and then use them as the people that deliver the service. And so these are attorneys that were in court anyway that were happy for my business it takes about five minutes to handle one case. And if I would give them sometimes five six 10 cases in a day and it only took them five minutes per case if they resolved that some cases were just rescheduled for whatever reason.
[00:03:35] So I endogamy take cases. But they will then we have to finish three or four now. So really wasn't a lot of time commitment on their part. And so I saw that I could pay them you know a lot less than I could charge my clients so I saw the room for a market here. And the key I guess was creating a brand that people would find me before they walked into court. And so we thought that over time and as you mentioned we're both members the Entrepreneurs Organization yio and through joining yio among other things I learned that just because you're a lawyer doesn't mean you have to follow what other lawyers do. So you created a logo and a tagline and we branded ourselves within the legal requirements for lawyer advertising and really became and are known for fighting traffic tickets are a phrase that we kind of own in the market as traffic ticket or New York traffic ticket. And having done it since 1981 till now you know we've really built a great following and in the early stages it was yellow book ads which some people maybe some people may not exactly.
[00:04:41] We did.
[00:04:42] We did a billboard. We did a lot of radio ads. We had great. And we still do have a great toll free number 1 888 Redlight. And in this amazing invention came along that just changed everything called the World Wide Web and focused a lot of effort on that because it was much more efficient for us. To put out in the world that this is what we do for people that are looking for us then to have a Radiohead and hope that someone's who's listening has a ticket or you remember another actually father the coolest which is more like a needle in a haystack. So it was a push versus pull kind of thing right. So I double down and focus on Africa that I still focused effort on my online marketing and now it's social media. It came about. And that is what is so. Through the years we just continue to build that and focus on it and always working to keep our organic levels as high as we can for financial search now. And we did pay per click for a while but our organic results were better than they were klick and we were getting such good organic results about five years ago that we stopped to paperclip. Now because the leads were better and they are now so. And so what I do is I focus my money on vendors that help with that organic search and prove you know are stating making sure that we are compliant with what Google and other search engines are looking for. And then of course we have a tremendous amount a word of mouth. You know customers family friends things like that. You know that's kind of the business model and that it doesn't require me to be there day to day.
[00:06:19] There's some great some great pieces I want to pull out of there because I think that a lot of people and particularly kind of professional services but services in general kind of get stuck on or they will hit a kind of a ceiling unless they figure out how to kind of change their business model. The one is figuring out how to a part of the process do you want to specialize in. So in this case it was really for you it was how do I generate demand and how do I map it to the resources out there. So rather than actually being the lawyer in the courthouse fighting the case it's hey I can find these leads I can find people that need legal services and I know that there's a market I can or I I've been able to identify and communicate with a market of people who can provide the service and I'm basically matchmaker. Right so how can I leverage and just get really good at that. Figure out how do I find the right lawyer. How do I find know communicate with them efficiently. How do I create the demand. And then how do I map those things up because that's that's a really that's a specific business model it's a specific position to take in the business that I think a lot of professional services or services in general think wife to be the one actually doing the work.
[00:07:24] And I think if you look at where the opportunity is on whereas the fishing and inefficiency in the market. The other piece that I love is that idea of owning words or owning Frazer's. And it's something we talk about in the strategy side is that the words that you own but figure out like what what is the vocabulary what does how do customers think about the problem that they have and being able to kind of capture those phrases and then own it not only from kind of a search term point of view but really from a market point of view like you're known as that person in the industry. If you have any of you have a problem like this you are the person to go to. And I think a lot of services firms you know end up kind of chasing money you know it's I will do anything for anybody you know and they may they fight this idea of specialization but in fact if the faster you want to scale the more you need to focus the more you need to specialize and stuff.
[00:08:15] Do you think how did you have times where there was tempting for you to branch off into other areas or to expand your services. Tell me a little bit about how religious were you able to be about
[00:08:29] That focus over the growth of the company.
[00:08:31] So that's a great question and I spent a lot of my time in the early years doing other type of work as well. So when I was a track record I would be writing contracts I would be handling litigation matters some criminal work real estate were pretty versatile and could competently handle a lot of that work. But over time I realized that the traffic business was such a good business that I could scale that has good margins that I needed to focus on that and there was this ego element to get passed right being being just a traffic lawyer. But over time I got past and honestly I would just get faster if I had focused on traffic from the outset. But it was always there. It was always a need for people to help you know needing help with their tickets. And so you know I can't say that we generated mix. I think the debate was there. But what our motto is We will hit all aspects of the case in-house through my staff or it has lawyers or paralegals except with one were we. But beyond that when court then we use of counsel attorneys who are associated with a firm and who we obviously that oversee and supervise.
[00:09:50] But our firm does some of the legal work so we will enter a not guilty plea when we get a date. We make sure that the lawyer has to get together the work that's needed. Any evidence we make sure that the lawyer has it we get assigned the lawyer. And then once the cases resolved then we report it to the client when there is a plea bargain in some courts. We can work out deals. You know we make sure that that plea is reasonable and then we get client permission. So a lot of that is done in-house. But the thing that's done by council attorneys which outside the legal world you might call subcontractors is the actual appearance in court. So we bouts of still be the law firm not solely buying or creating and selling leads which is not what it is. So we are able to effectively deliver the service comport with the legal requirements of the press have yet exploit a need in the market. And and and be able to make a living doing so.
[00:10:50] Yeah. I'm curious how one of the challenges I typically find particularly on kind of you know the kind of service management is in a sense as as you start to scale like how do you maintain quality.
[00:11:00] How do you maintain a process like what are some of the things you've done that you think have helped you with the you know as you kind of turn up the volume of the work that you're doing that you're maintaining the quality and the process and you're making sure that that you're still delivering effectively one really big thing we did which really helped us grow.
[00:11:21] And it's I scratch my head why we didn't do it before we made change. But it used to be when someone would call and hire us then that person that entertained the core would actually handle the occasion he said. And at some point we realized that that wasn't working well and so we created different positions almost like departments if you will. So now we have a couple of people that handle inbound calls and explain what we could do in the service. And of course often I end up speaking to many of those people as well but often they hire us and once we're hired and the paperwork is signed then it gets passed off to one of two other people who actually will file that case and shepherded through the process and then we have a final person that handles fines and things like that. So by looking at the workflow and creating specialists if you will are focused responsibilities that really kind of allow the water to flow a lot quicker. Kind of like a cain't hose when you're out in the garden. We uncage the hose by changing how the rules in the bus were assigned.
[00:12:28] Any insights in terms of kind of the communication and keeping people you know making sure everyone knows what they're doing at different times. You know I just I see kind of anytime you kind of start doing department stuff it's like a standoff. Right. So how do you manage kind of these handoffs as it goes from state to state issued to stage three.
[00:12:46] So we have our case we have black and white pretty clear triggers right. So once the person hires us and signs the paperwork and they're in the system then it gets hit it off to one or two people depending on where in New York State. We are live from Clover's all tickets throughout New York State. So goes to one of two people based on that. So it's a it's a blanket one trigger. There's no gray area there right now. Then from there once cases resolved then it goes to someone else. So again we got the result. We know there's a fine do and then someone Mesta him on that and making sure that that filing gets T. So we have I guess the answer is clear black and white. No not milestones in the process.
[00:13:24] Yeah. And you have some kind of underlying technology to the US isn't something that you applied as a something you built.
[00:13:30] What was the you know we built says Virgin's store with sales force and we were trying to use that for our infrastructure. And unfortunately I was conceding too many things that you know that I wanted this instance do that it could be now at about 70000 into it. And I said not working and start all over again with a cloud based system that uses open source and it's custom Johnson when our system does is it does the billing it does the countering it does assign tasks and people can check with tests that are done. So basically it allows us to contact management based classes to run our entire law firm from that one location anything that the software we use separate and apart is quick books for our business. Yeah but handles all the finances for the client and and keep track of payments and fines and monies and things like that.
[00:14:24] Yeah. And I think unfortunately your story of spending a lot of money on a package to then have to build it yourself is not an uncommon one. The amount of money will vary how long it took somebody to kind of figure it out.
[00:14:35] But you know I think that all kind of buy versus build decision is it's a tough one and it ends up being very kind of any heuristics or guidelines that you would suggest to people about you know looking at that buy versus build decision that you think you would have maybe done differently.
[00:14:52] The big eyeopener that people who I myself included don't realize when they're doing a project of that nature custom project is that it's a tremendous amount of time commitment. I'm you or your firm's port your company or just because you're paying someone and hire them and paying them a lot of money to build the system doesn't mean that you can just wipe the hands and get this magic result. You know in 90 days or six months later it's a lot of meetings and give and take and reviewing and back and forth. They don't know your business like you do. And you can tell them but until you see the wire frames and and then they're are prototypes. It's a lot of work on your part to get it done.
[00:15:34] Yeah. Yeah I think that's the A dollar number of the check that you write to them in terms of the cost of the software can sometimes be less than what it ends up costing you in terms of opportunity cost of time. Typically when you're dealing with fairly highly paid professionals that have to get that knowledge out of their head into the system. So yeah I think budgeting that is important.
[00:15:54] Yeah. And another thing that we did which is unique and because of the time commitment I seriously doubt any of my competitors would do this. We created a three tools that are free to use on their web app webapp nations which ones a ticket calculator. One's a ticket analyzer and one's a ticket strategizes. So the Cascada will tell you how many points your ticket carries and the allies would make a recommendation should you fight it. And why. And then the strategizes will explain how to fight your ticket based on the court and the robust rules. These are not simple tools that get you to call up to get more information. They essentially do every single thing that I would do or any other person analyzing the situation with the knowledge that I have would do so. For instance if you have a license from Missouri and you get a ticket in New York you're going to want to know what's. It's a plane. How does that affect me in Missouri. Sister tell you that if you have a restricted license we'll tell you the fact that this particular ticket and you restrict the license. So there is a series of questions but it's a simple three step process. And that took I can't even tell you how many Apple the hours of logic Apple are made to to perfect.
[00:17:04] And we of course had to get it tested. And you know it was a huge commitment on purpose. It gives us a strategic advantage of competitive advantage because my competitors are for that and what it does is it really is a white paper on steroids. Right. Anyone interested in being right about that about getting those gifts of the away of value something that people would want to give their email address away for now and you'll get whatever it is 10 tips or something like that. And so what we're doing is we're giving away valuable information for your e-mail address. But by the same token because we're analyzing your ticket we now know that have a queen stop sign ticket scheduled for July 12th now. So not only do we have your e-mails just but we have your information. And now we're able to drip on you in a customized way. Now some full information about your case beyond the three things that rituals I already describe. We might tell you where and how to address or where to park. And all specialized to that critical court and it can be helpful. And big top of mine. So it becomes this amazing tool to provide a customized drip campaign.
[00:18:18] And I think Paul disclosure I think I use you for a stop sign violation and clean. So that was probably my dance.
[00:18:26] And so I think that's interesting because I think a lot of people were shy or at least some people would shy away from providing that much help.
[00:18:34] I mean at some level you're giving away a lot of what you do in this tool like what was the justification for putting that kind of value to that kind of capability.
[00:18:43] You know out into the world Yeah I actually learned that from Seth Godin the great new group and he once said at a session I was at his he gives everything away. His blog is free. His content is free. He gives it all. He writes books you basically gets content for the price of a book and gives it away. But if you want him to show up and do a keynote at a conference or an event that's when you pay. You get paid very handsomely because he gets very substantial fees and I felt the same way like I could give it away. I'm happy to give it away. You'll never be on a fight that case as well as me. If I tell you the process and how we do it and by the way no one wants to spend the time to do it you know it's a commitment. And so our fees are so reasonable for a lawyer you know someone has license and went to law school and delivering the legal service. And for the time that we put into a case that we could provide given that we're doing the volume and we have these kinds of skills that I can share all that and still most people are happily going Hiam into it now.
[00:19:45] Yeah. And I think I think that as a fairly evolved way of thinking about it I think a lot of people end up kind of with us on a more scarcity mindset about doing stuff like that. But yes we are giving information out there. Giving the capabilities that actually becomes a great filtering tool right like the people that really are going to go through it and fight it themselves. Probably not you know customers for your prospects for you. Right. And the people that are going to try and then halfway through and say honest I should just hire them you know and that's a great way to kind of actually filter those folks out.
[00:20:16] And the more you know the more they realize you know this is something that they really don't want to do. And it's more complicated than they thought and you know the thing about a traffic ticket unlike other purchases is they're very emotional. People are angry they're scared. And you know is severe it's stressful. People get different emotions from traffic tickets. And so as a result you know they often will rely on a professional to help them deal with it because they want it off their plate. You know they feel like they they have a better chance to win.
[00:20:48] And the truth is same with this company that you felt the systems you built the marketing engine and the brand recognition.
[00:20:55] You know I think one of the key things is around scaling businesses. As you know once you're successful scaling what do you do.
[00:21:02] And it's actually it's oftentimes a question we ask in the beginning which as well say you're successful in scaling it. You know why. Like what do you want to do with it. And I I think you've particularly Don a phenomenal job of really using the business as a tool as a vehicle no pun intended to get to the kind of bigger pompousness bigger impact you want to have.
[00:21:22] Tell us a little bit about how I guess when you started to think about the bigger picture when you thought about what kind of impact you want to make on your community on society on the world and how that played into your business planning process.
[00:21:34] Sure. So I actually created the time for so that when the opportunity arose I would be able to take advantage of it didn't know what when and how. But at some point I realized that I didn't want to be working eight hours a day doing the operations of the water from being in that business. And second I didn't like the business. It's just I've done it it wasn't challenging and I also felt that I could do other things that would be interesting to me. And so I had this vision well how can I get myself out of the business to still run it effectively. So so I just slowly figure out what do I do every day. What are my responsibilities and I kind of just made a list of what I do. And so that I said OK well what can I stop doing. What can I do to create. And so I mentioned earlier what we advocate is doing real estate and commercial work. So we advocate a certain work and that freed up time for me. And it took a little bit of time because I had to get rid of some cases that were pending. But I was the first Proston. Ok so things that I was an advocate what can I do to me what can I create a system that no people need to touch that are part of my responsibility.
[00:22:42] So my response was You get the phone ring. That's one of my responsibilities. And so being responsive to e-mails that come in from our Web site as quickly as possible and to customize matters is important. So I actually create a system that allows for automated e-mails to be sent there customized to the court and they charge the offense that someone has. So now that's something that I had a responsibility for that I donate more because it's not automated. Right. And then the third leg of the stool was delegate. So what are the things that I'm doing that I could give to someone else to handle. Again freeing up my time and they won for me was shouts. I felt like no one in my office could sell as well as I'm the best salesperson. But then I had this light bulb moment and I realized that if I could have someone that's 80 percent as good as me then that's good enough. Interesting because while 8 percent of me will not close as many people and certainly they'll be less income coming in it frees up hours of my life hours of my life that I'll never get back. That's the most precious resource we have is time on earth and no one knows how much you have. So if you could free up time in your life and be able to do things that you love that make you happy you know.
[00:23:57] Why not. So it's a process of advocating automating and delegating and so through that process I freed up enough of my time now I still work at my firm I still do things that need to be done. But it's not the same commitment of time that I previously worked and so although I volunteer for not for profits including Hotspurs organization as you know and I've done other things with with my time. But the one I'm particularly proud about is started with a lunch of my banker and went to lunch with a big banker. Geoff Crowther and he told me a story about his son wealth's was passed away on 9/11 and obviously the family was devastated and he was a great kid. If you heard a lot about him. You appreciate it. But you know he's captain of his hockey team and he always looked out for this for us and his family was utterly devastated and eight months later the family was learned about his heroics. And it's all connected it's red bandana and he was an incredible hero of 9/11. And I just thought it was one of the most incredible stories I ever heard. I thought everyone needed to hear that story and then I said to myself you need to share that story with everybody. So well I never had any experience in making a film I never had a bucket list to make a film we never took a class at filmmaking.
[00:25:18] I decided that I was going to make a film about this story. And so there are filmmakers I look for stories. This was a story that found the filmmaker and coures I had set up my business in a way that allowed me to have some free time. I was able to take advantage of that opportunity. And after six years completed a documentary film about Welles who won an award at the National Film Festival was released from coast to coast in theatres which is you know most documented will get released theatrically and it's currently on iTunes and Amazon. It's cool man in red bandana. I'm very proud of it and the family loved it. You know Alison and Jotham particular parents and OPSEU they were the most important critics that I only cared about and I felt that by sharing that story hopefully to encourage other people to be better people and to inspire them to do great things and think about this first. I think there's a lot of Mimi in this world. And if we could all be a little less selfish and a little more self less this incredible place and we'll be sharing Will's story. And even my story in making this film will encourage people to do things that are in that vein.
[00:26:28] Yeah. So and I'll make sure that links to the to the film and to get information on the floor and show notes and to the videos and stuff. And I think the interesting piece in you know first of all as I've seen the film I think at least twice now. Very touching.
[00:26:44] It's it's fascinating to hear your story about how it was created and your work with the family and and really just kind of the reveals of how you kind of learned about it and kind of discovered more information as you went and the kind of the use of the networks and kind of how not only did the business give you kind of the time and the kind of resources to do it but really the community and the relationships and the connections to actually make this stuff happen. The interesting thing about the whole process for me is that it wasn't. I was in my business. I had a very clear sense of this new purpose that I wanted to do and then figured out how to get myself out of it. You consciously chose to say hey look I'm not sure what it is yet but I know there's something else that I need to do with you know in this world to serve and I can't do it if I'm neck deep in my head in a business and actually taking make you know having the discipline and the foresight to actually get yourself out of it and then experiment and kind of you know be out there and put yourself into the world to make that opportunity happen is I think a phenomenal story and I think anyone who is caught up in business and it's an easy thing to get caught up in right. I'm the next million dollars in revenues the next acquisition the next geography that I want to roll out to it's very easy to kind of get wrapped up and growth for growths sakes rather than growth for getting you to someplace where you can actually shift kind of shift the focus or shift the way in which you're going to have impact or also you know kudos to you in terms of say is this for you live your life should not be your business and that unless you're really passionate about doing what you do you know then figure it out.
[00:28:21] And this is not Apple overnight. You know that process of automated delegating application did not happen overnight. It happened over time and with effort. And I certainly needed to build the volume of business we had to grow sales to accomplish my vision. But the first thing and most important thing is had that vision right. If you to Uber tonight you tell the cab driver where you want only go right and then he or she will figure out the route to get you there. But if you don't have a destination you're never going to figure out a route. So destination of freeing up that time and then I figured out the route to get there now.
[00:28:57] That's correct. And I hear you're working on another film now too. What's the. Tell us a little bit about the next one.
[00:29:04] Yeah. So it's called Vault's the single best part of being involved with the second film was that I never thought I'd be involved with the second most famous last words. Well I made the first film with no intention to make the movie. It was purely to share that one story. I never even thought of this being a career. I just thought I need to share and tell this story in the best manner possible that is worthy of this hero Sterling individual that saved so many lives on 9/11. And so I was you're knee deep in it focus to get it done after six years. And along the way I met of people which helped me get it finalized and distributed. And he had a lot of experience making films and he like work with me. He saw that I was a go getter organize. I filed two of my commitments and he said I was more. Actually he said are smart because he's a friend of mine from doing the Naum so now as a business partner myself. And he asked me if I would want to be involved with his new project.
[00:30:06] He sent me the script and I just loved it. It's colorful and it's about a heist from a vault that happened in 1975. Thirty million dollars was stolen from this fall in the Providence Rhode Island. And to this day it's the largest heist from a vault in U.S. history and one of the twists that you find out pretty early on the story is that this vault was not a bank with paperwork and regulations but rather it was in the basement of a fur showroom which was really a front for the wall. And that's because this vault was where the New England mob would keep their cash the jewels guns and all other kinds of crazy stuff. And it essentially was the bank of the mob said at the bank back and forth back and forth. And you know all day people coming and going making withdrawals and deposits in this vault. And so it's an amazing story because it obviously can't end up well for these guys. Notwithstanding that they at least initially were successful.
[00:31:04] Sounds fascinating so yet so and I love the fact that I had no desire or plans to make another film. But I also love that now I'm involved with a major feature film Chaz voluntary Don Johnson are in it among other stars cast is incredible.
[00:31:21] I was on set you know looking and learning about so many different things that are different from a documentary. And to be at a crucial role on a major film that I think is going to be a special film and really well received and huge commercial and artistic success. I am so elated.
[00:31:39] It's like pinch me like this is so much more of this and that's the purpose and that's the goal. That is to build a business that serves healing gives you opportunities.
[00:31:47] You know wonderful exciting things. I think you know on a per cent achievement on the goal of getting to that point and you know professionally.
[00:31:55] So the main question is are you going to do a third possibly possibly somebody who has I have an idea for a documentary is a couple of obtuse features. It's amazing. All you need do is make one film and people come out of the woodworks and once they want to be extras they want to show you this. And they think that this big success will experience filmmaker and I'm still learning as I'm going anyway.
[00:32:21] But it's amazing how people gravitate to that. And you know I was at a couple of film festivals with my first film in a ribbon database and actors and actresses that you've heard of were interested in talking to me because because I had on my bed so maker in this film in the festival because as an actor actress it was the single worst job you could have. You are actually or dishing an interview new job. And he was one you know and how long it's going to last and most likely you're going to have to interview for new jobs five to 50 times a year. Yeah. And unless you're like Jennifer Lawrence or Bradley Cooper It's very tough out there for that actresses.
[00:33:01] I can imagine. I can imagine Matt this is a pleasure. If people want to find out more about you about the films about the business what's the best way to kind of get that. And you know contact information sure won't.
[00:33:12] Matthew Weiss dot com is my personal website and my traffic ticket Web and Web site is 888 red light dot com. And then of course many red bandana dot com is the first stone.
[00:33:23] So any one of those will or I will I'll make sure all those links are on the Schoenaerts and stuff so people can get to know us. It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for taking some time. I really had a lot of fun on this. Thank you.