Michael Zipursky, CEO of Consulting Success

Scaling Up Services - 024 - Michael Zipursky

Michael Zipursky, CEO of Consulting Success

Michael Zipursky is the CEO of Consulting Success and Coach to Elite Consultants. He has advised organizations like Financial Times, Dow Jones, RBC, Omron, Sumitomo and helped Panasonic launch new products into global markets, but more importantly, he’s helped over 300 consultants from around the world in over 50 industries add six and seven figures to their annual revenues and over 33,000 consultants read his weekly consulting newsletter. Michael is also the author of the Amazon Best Seller "The Elite Consulting Mind".


Learn how to land more clients, increase your fees and win more proposals with this free 51 page Consulting Blueprint. https://www.consultingsuccess.com

Start a Consulting Business: A Proven and Practical Guide : https://www.consultingsuccess.com/start-a-consulting-business


[00:00:01] You're listening to Scaling Up Services where we speak with entrepreneurs authors business experts and thought leaders to give you the knowledge and insights you need to scale your service based business faster and easier. And now here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.

[00:00:21] Welcome everyone. This is scaling up services. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host today.

[00:00:26] We're here with Michael is a Zipursky. Michael is CEO of Consulting Success and he's the author of the elite consulting mind. Michael welcome to the program. Hey thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure. I always like to start with just kind of getting people's backgrounds. I mean we're going to hear a little bit about how you work with consultants and how you help with kind of success and strategy and helping them build business. But I love to hear like how did you get into this. What was your professional background and how did this all start for you.

[00:00:53] Yes we started actually out of high school a little bit of a high school. My cousin and business partners of course but also business into this.

[00:01:01] Sam and I started a Web design development business. His role was really in the design and development. My role was you know business development and communications and business you know lasted for a while it really was kind of our entrepreneurial beginnings but very quickly showed us a lot of potential and you know we learned a lot. So we transition that into a branding and marketing consultancy called collocated culture Conca in Japanese means relationship. I ended up going over to Japan and opening up a branch office for that business and we advised and consulted for and worked with organizations like Panasonic and Dow Jones and Financial Times and Sumitomo and Emraan and a whole bunch of other you know billion dollar organizations helping them to communicate more effectively and to launch products and brands into English speaking markets around the world.

[00:01:50] Yes. In other matters. TRANSLATOR Yeah yeah.

[00:01:53] It was just a lot of fun. You know frankly like I could never go into Japan helping Japanese companies to sell more to the Japanese market because of so many of the nuances. But in terms of helping them to communicate effectively to English speaking countries that you know that felt it was just very comfortable so I was still quite young when I was doing it I was in my early 20s and that taught me a lot of lessons about self-confidence about coming up against challenges and roadblocks and you know mindset because here I was this young guy working with a billion dollar organizations. I was presenting in boardrooms in Japanese. I was you know surrounded by 50 and 60 year olds. But but it really was a wonderful experience and so we built that business. I ended up coming back to North America later starting another consulting business this time helping professional services firms so law firms accountants other financial insurance investment advisers to generate more leads for their business. And it was right around that time where both myself and Sam really recognized that we want to also have the ability to work from anywhere to build a business that was location independent and so that was really important for for us.

[00:03:04] And so that's kind of where consulting success started. But when it started there was really no good business plan behind it. There was no monetization there was no product. It really just came from a place of OK let's start something going to begin by writing articles and sharing my lessons both of what was working and what wasn't working right. The failures and kind of lessons with others because I thought if I'm learning a lot. Why not share it with others. They don't have to make the same mistakes and so fast forward until today. You know we've we've worked with thousands of consultants around the world we've personally helped over 300 of them add six and seven figures to their annual revenues. You know we've built up an audience or 33000 people and are on our mailing list. We have many more coming to the website each month so it's it's really kind of gained a momentum or movement around it.

[00:03:50] And and a really great community and I like that kind of approach. We've got great learning great content. Let's get it out there in the world and see what we're tracking into your icon of the business and monetize or monetize it.

[00:04:02] Yeah I mean the one just made distinction make there it's that wasn't like our full time the full time gig was still running consulting business. So we weren't doing this from a place of where we need to generate income from the. I'm still not a big believer necessarily in the model of just build something and try and monetize it down the road. I think it's very important to validate what you're doing as quickly as possible. But in this case it was almost just like hey here's a hobby I'm going to write and share information. Hopefully it helps others. But as we saw the momentum pick up with it you know we clearly saw business as well.

[00:04:33] When did you see it or did it go from becoming kind of a hobby to see CNN as a real life business that you could focus on.

[00:04:41] Yes. I mean continue to to run a consulting business alongside of it but probably about a year in or maybe eight months to 12 months into writing articles and putting it up just was clear that something was happening. You know I wasn't just putting out content and it was going into an abyss like there was interaction there was engagement there. There were questions coming in. And so I think like any you know good business person you recognize when there is a need and you're able to validate that if you're able to provide value and a solution then that a business can be born and so for quite some time you know we were shifting energy. At one point we were running three different businesses at once. We ended up selling one of our other businesses that was acquired. So we continued to kind of fine tune and balance where we were spending our time. And today I'm spending you know the vast majority of my time working with clients that consulting success.

[00:05:36] So it's not just about what consulting success focuses on who do you how. What is the value you provide it. How do you provide it.

[00:05:43] Sure. So there's two main groups of clients or of concessions that we help. Means exclusively console. If someone is a massage therapist or a spiritual healer. Right if they're serving consumers as their client then we're not the best placed as others out there that can help them. Our core client is someone who has a great deal of expertise. They haven't really develop that work in the corporate world for quite some time now they want to realize their own potential and so they'll reach out to us when they want to essentially start a successful consulting business. And we have a roadmap and a plan to help them to do that. The other kind of segment or client is someone who's been running a consulting business for many years. They typically go out to where they are just based on referrals and their own network. But they realize that those referrals start to dry up. They're not able to grow maybe revenue is flatlining or even dipping. They don't have consistency they don't have a good marketing plan then so we'll work with them to put in a very good marketing plan and system process that allows them to generate more leads consistently allows them to scale their business you know to grow revenue but also to create more freedom and leverage so they have time to enjoy life.

[00:06:50] Yes. You mentioned this before I'm curious how much how much are you helping them with kind of the process and the techniques and how much are you helping them with that mindset. Because you know I think that you're going to experience into the Japanese culture of of you know how use of these positions and it was as much of the challenge is how are you thinking about the situation. How are you Freedia as as the actual work that you're doing. How do you approach that when you when you work with your clients.

[00:07:17] Yeah I mean that's a great question. So that's that's actually the reason why I wrote the book The really consulting mind because what I continued to notice Bruce is that you can have people who are extremely skilled who know you know they know the strategies they know the tactics like they know what they need to do but they're not doing it. They're not getting the results that they want. And so what came back to me more and more and what I saw in our own business and in our clients businesses is that the most successful people are the ones who have mastered their mindset or they at least have certain approaches or ways of thinking. And so in that book I share of 16 of the most common roadblocks or challenges of general encounter as consultants and then share my own stories and experiences as well as stories from our clients of how to overcome those and how to see things differently because when you see those things differently you can approach the exact same situation one person will get knocked down and just feel they're dragging themselves every single day and others will just be able to get right back up and say OK Like this is part of the learning experience.

[00:08:11] Like here's what you need to do. Or you know challenges around pricing challenges around trying to be a perfectionist in your marketing these are very common things that that we all encounter. But the most successful just know how to manage them from a mindset perspective so in terms of back like real question how do we focus our time. The majority of our time is spent really helping our clients get the right processes and systems in place giving them the best practices the tools the templates to be able to really start seeing results quickly. That being said a big part of our coaching program is mindset and so we create a community we create an environment where consultants can learn not only from us but also from others like themselves and really be able to see things for what they are and to be able to to share because you know being a consultant can be a pretty lonely career and can be when you're by yourself it's like whoa who you bounce questions off of or who can you ask a question to or what if you're just feeling a little bit down like you're not the only person but if you are the only person if you don't have a good community or if you don't have someone that you can share with oftentimes it can be really hard.

[00:09:13] So what we've really focused on doing is creating this environment where people don't have to feel long where they can very confidently and comfortably share what they're going through share their successes. But what I've also observed Bruce is that one of the biggest things that holds people back from really feeling that sense of confidence is they don't have a plan. And so when you provide them a plan and you really lay it out for them and you give them confidence and you can show them that it's been working for others that it makes them feel much more comfortable to give it a try and so they don't hesitate as much. So we mix in as much as we can lessons around mindsets and even break down when we talk about pricing. We have a training on the mind set for pricing when we talk about marketing. We talk about the mindset for marketing and so we'll will always have a layer or an element of mindset around every module or every kind of key stage or strategy that we're sharing.

[00:10:06] Yeah and I know when I talked about pricing in a second here I think you did remind you of the one story at a coach mentor who before kind of when I did my original consulting work I was selling him was like well I want to be a consultant because I don't want to have to have a boss. And he looks at me the problem is you're going to be your own boss and I'm not sure you want to work for yourself.

[00:10:24] You don't have that kind of discipline in structure. I think a lot of people come to me and say or at least don't appreciate that going into consulting as I am. So all the time like it's it's a selling game and you have to be self managing and a lot of people I think get into consulting and do realize that they have to be really good managers of themselves to make this whole thing work.

[00:10:43] Definitely. I mean it's a sure test of of how committed someone is. I mean a lot of people say they're committed or they expressed that but I think it's a very big difference between being interested in being committed right people that are interested will always dabble they'll gather lots of information they typically feel empowered by information or just by activity. But what typically happens when I've observed is just activity itself is not what gets you success right it's doing the right thing is the high value activities but most often those high value activities are the ones that a lot of people feel uncomfortable around there the more challenging ones and so they're the ones that people put off like picking up the phone and giving someone a call or going to an event or putting a piece of content out there that may not be perfect yet or it's very easy to spend time playing with our websites or our business plans or using it on our business. Jason is just like all this stuff gives people the false illusion they're being productive here. But you don't need those things to really be successful or you certainly don't need those things to be perfect to be successful and so that's why taking action is one of the biggest things that I encourage my clients probably are just tired of hearing me say this but like imperfect action it is so powerful because that's where you learn. And it doesn't matter whether HTML pricing you're talking about marketing you're talking about you know just trying something new product imperfect action is what actually will give you feedback from the marketplace and at the end of the day that's what matters the most you think the imperfect action.

[00:12:07] Push is more about because it's only by taking action is where you'll learn you'll get the feedback to tell you what to write or that you know 80 percent of the time it's good enough and it's going to be sufficient to do what you needed done at the time. Or is it there.

[00:12:25] I think that's a really great question and I do believe that there are studies that have shown that most of the output will come from so that you don't need 100 percent to get the results right and so what most people think is Oh yeah I need 100 percent to be able to get in their mind completion. But what I've observed that most successful people do is they don't actually care necessarily about the perfection or the 100 percent completion it's that they're always taking action. And so even if you know if they're only putting in like a 70 percent completed action that 70 percent is compound because they're doing it over and over and over again. And so they're making significantly more progress and the person who is waiting to try and have something that is just a 100 percent to put out there.

[00:13:05] Yeah but these other kind of mindset there are things that you've seen people kind of approach wrong or frame wrong when they're kind of looking at their practice or developing their practice. What are some of the nuggets that you've heard in there from the book or from the work that you've done that you've seen out there.

[00:13:21] Yeah. I mean you touched on pricing. So pricing is I think a huge win for so many people. It really a common challenge people have around that is they use kind of like the status quo pricing of hourly pricing or daily rates. And that's a really big big problem. Happy to dive into that kind of talk about why that's not optimal in almost all situations.

[00:13:39] Yeah but even in another issue just regarding pricing is that most people leave a lot of money on the table because they're scared to increase their fees and that happens for two reasons. One is they don't know how to increase their fees. They don't have a good approach to that and they're not they're not confident then to go ahead and do it. But even then when when they have a good approach oftentimes people worry and they worry that they're going to lose clients if they're going to offend someone or that someone might say no to them and says fear of rejection but what I've seen consistently this is both in our own business and with our clients that the moment they say OK like I now know what I need to do you learned what how to increase your prices or how to approach it the right way.

[00:14:16] And when you just put it out there almost every single time you will get you'll start making more money. And this is like the lowest hanging fruit for the vast majority of people. It's this fear of OK well. I don't know if I can charge more. You know maybe the buyers and Asay are my clients going to say no to me. But the moment you actually put it out there you will almost always find as long as the value is there. All right I'm not just I'm not encouraging people to increase their pricing if the value isn't there but as long as the value and the return on investment is going to be there for your client making sure that you are being compensated fairly for that and charging premium fees almost always leads you to actually receiving premium fees. So that I think is just a really great opportunity for everyone to just look at what they're charging do. Actually we did a study at consulting success where we asked people you know do you want to be earning higher fees and over 80 percent of respondents said yes. And so when we dug into that we could figure OK like what was going on. That is shows us that there's huge opportunity for people to earn more because if you really believe that you deserve more you probably do.

[00:15:16] Yeah it's funny it's true with business in general. At the moment you can decrease your price. Know all that drops to the bottom line unless you're talking about changing something about your business model or the service you're offering or the product you develop as well increasing price of 1 percent is a 10 to 20 percent decrease in your profitability.

[00:15:36] So how are the leverage that précis has these huge organization of people.

[00:15:41] Yeah I think that you get caught up in their head about it and they do get caught up in kind of a cost basis kind of view of it.

[00:15:48] But you can crack the pricing and you can be can really move the needle for mostly this is the some of the mindset around that because I see them you kind of alluded to it was how do you suggest people shouldn't thinking about pricing or approach pricing.

[00:16:02] Well so the first thing that I would say is that it's really important that people understand the optimal model for pricing that they want to use. Right there is not just one best model because it depends like a lot of our clients. We've helped set up successful performance and equity types of compensation models which are not appropriate for all consultants are not appropriate for the early stage or novice consultants. But when you have a good model in place and you can really deliver results it can be incredibly lucrative and rewarding and fun quite frankly. But you know then focusing on like our ally based fees right value based fees is a really great approach because you're connecting the return on investment that you are delivering for the client to your compensation.

[00:16:45] I mean you're or you're moving away and so we had a client that was going to be charging 50000 dollars for a project based on their hourly fee. And when we really kind of looked at what they were doing and we had a conversation around well what is the value for your client. Like if they if they do this what do they benefit. What are those benefits look like. How does that impact their bottom line. How does it impact you know other areas of the organization. And then another area that a lot of people don't talk about. I mean we know people know about RAII right on investment a lot people don't talk about Selye and S.Y. stands for Cost of an action. So when you can also help your buyer to see the cost of not taking action the cost of staying where they are how that could impact their stock price their market share competitors getting an edge. You know there's a lot of different factors that you can actually identify that create and demonstrate value around the cost of inaction. So when you look at the cost of an auction you look at return on investment and then you have a really deep and meaningful conversation with your buyer or with a prospective client around that it becomes very clear that you're able to earn more and in fact what happens is if you stay with a typical model of hourly fees or the rates most buyers you look at you as a consultant or profit and when professional services as an expense your cost.

[00:17:58] That's like how much is it going to cost us. But the moment where you engage in a really deep and meaningful conversation and you're helping that buyer to see the value you're helping them to see what happens if they stay where they are you're asking them questions that others typically aren't asking them. Now they look at that as an investment. Right. I mean Bruce you and I would be happy to make investment into something if we know that we're going to get more back from it. And it's the same with our clients if they know that they're going to get more than what they're putting into it. Their mindset shifts to not thinking about us as a cost or an expense any more but rather as an investment. So most people are willing to invest more they're actually happier to invest. It doesn't mean it's not scary but they're happier to invest more because they know that the more they invest the more they're going to get back from that. And so that is really that the minds of the consultants should have. I would encourage them to have around this and it all stems from coming into and having a conversation with your audio clients so that both parties are focused on the value rather than just numbers.

[00:18:52] And the other thing that I think is happening right I've noticed around that is when when consumption praises their work by the hour it skews they're sort of their internal incentive to get more efficient because if they if they figure out how to get that project done if they go through a process that normally takes 10 hours and they figure out how to do it in five hours we'll know they've just got the rate you know instead of pushing them out. What's the value I can generate.

[00:19:19] Now how can I deliver that same value for half the amount of time and basically actually not change the cost and the client declines it'll be the same. But my internal profitability has gone up significantly by improving how I work. And I think that the cost base kind of pricing model and mentality just skewing that you know into an industry that is this is an opportunity for sure.

[00:19:41] I mean people are using hourly fees. In fact I mean you're almost encouraged to provide that result like slower rate and more time products out to a client whereas if you can provide that result much faster you know again back to your point right. Not only is there more leverage and more margin in that for you right. But even more importantly the clients the benefits sooner. So it's in the client's best interest to have that result provides them as quickly as possible. And when you get the client to see that then it makes sense that your compensation should also rise if you're able to like clients don't care about how long it takes you. I mean yes they want to know what timeline but they're not paying for your time. They don't care all the time they want a result. And so that's really the opportunity for consensus to start focusing on your time your time as is whatever you want to like make it it's not about your time it's about the result and the solution the output the outcome for the client. And when you really shift your focus from how long something's in a take or how much you charge by the hour or by the day or whatever. And instead have the conversation with your buyer around what is the real outcome and result in value that they want and then figure out how you can best deliver that and make sure that there's a positive return on investment for them in that situation that most buyers and clients will be very happy to engage with you in those terms.

[00:20:56] Yeah you hit on something that I would love to promote the idea of target customer ideal customer and indeed excite employees into pricing.

[00:21:05] You know it may but how do you address them. How do you how companies are happy consultants individuals figure out who they really should be working with and who they should be working with.

[00:21:16] What's your process or what's your recommendation around that.

[00:21:18] Yeah definitely we do a lot of work with our clients around this because it's so important we call aiyo Klein selection one of the first things that we actually do is we tape you go through a process called the aiyo Kline discovery process because it drives everything right and if you're not clear on who your ideal client is then how can you market effectively to them. One of the key is to be able to develop a message that gets the attention interest of your Ideo clients and really has them raising their hands. They want to engage in a conversation is to ensure that you're able to speak to them right. I mean we're all surround by so much noise these days that it's very easy for us to just dismiss or ignore all of the messaging.

[00:21:53] But if someone is putting a message in front of you that is speaking directly to you. Right. It's going to get your attention. If I said Hey Brue wearing the black shirt like me I think you're sure you're wearing Russa's block right. You'd probably like Oh Bruce I'm wearing a black shirt. Like that's me right. I got your attention but if I decide hey guy and then you're we're you know we're in a room with thousands of people it's probably not going to get your attention. So the more specific you can identify your ideal client and have really good criteria. First of all it becomes easier for you to find them because you know what you're looking for. But then it also becomes a lot easier for you to get their attention and their interest because you can develop messaging that will really resonate with them. And when you also know who your ideal client is now you can create solutions or you can create offers that will resonate and align with them because you know who you are really targeting. And I think the other really big opportunity for people is that you have the choice to focus on any type of you know ideal Klein out there. And so if you want to target low value low paying clients that's your choice. But if you're on target working with higher value organizations or higher value clients that you really enjoy working with that are more profitable for you then you can also do that. So this is one of the biggest choices that a lot of people I think just get really weak on why they're not clear.

[00:23:12] They're not they're not really stringent and so they end up saying Look I'll take on any type of client that so their business ends up being very bloated and very complex and very mixed because they have many different types of clients. There then have to have many different variations of their messaging which at that they have to have different offers to try and service all these different people in different price points. And so they create these very complex beasts that end up also creating a lot of overwhelm and people who get tired they get burnt out instead. You know you can create a very very streamlined very systematize very clear and simple approach by saying okay this is my ideal client is you know I have a track record in working with this type of person based on their geography based on the size of the company based on where I've create results and where I enjoy working like you know you live all these different factors and then you figure out is there potential in the marketplace you go to validate that and then you combine you know all the other pieces of making sure the messaging that gets their attention you have offers that will resonate and align with them. All right. And then you're able to put your marketing and focus on them and then you build a business with the types of clients you actually enjoy and love working with and in a way that's very profitable and financially rewarding for you.

[00:24:26] Yeah I think that that's kind of the somewhat counter-intuitive or at least originally counter-intuitive for folks is the more you want to kind of grow and make more profitable and other businesses the more you need to focus and you have this kind of bloated client list that you know you have that you have to do everything differently for each line. It just makes the whole process of trying to streamline and hone in and really optimize your the work you deliver and you create really really complicated if you're if you're dealing with a mis can of a mismatch of clients.

[00:24:59] Yeah definitely I mean I think actually if you look at the most successful businesses of all time they typically start off with one offering right or they're very very focused. And we've seen with many of our clients that you know you can have a high six figure even seven figure consulting business as an independent consultant with one or two offerings. You don't need to have 10 different services and tons of people to create a very high profit margin business that still allows you to have a lot of freedom in a lot of flexibility.

[00:25:29] So a little bit about the mindset around that because I think you know it's difficult for votes and the people that are early sorting things out. You know some level sort of chasing the revenues chasing the money a little bit. You know it's tough to kind of get over that. How do you kind of coach or what's the process for you in terms of shifting someone from kind of that you know chasing money mode to really be selective and targeted and focus on just the people they know they can be highly problem with.

[00:25:54] That's a great question. It really depends on what stage that person is not. If someone very early on I actually don't think it's a bad thing for them to test out you know taking on different types of Clynes a little bit and navigating because for them the number one priority might be cash flow.

[00:26:09] It might just be generate more cash to be able to fund and grow the business.

[00:26:13] It's just about getting some win because that gives them more more confidence. So that's not necessarily a bad thing but really as quickly as possible you want transition your business and your focus to getting very clear around who is your ideal client and become comfortable with saying no I become comfortable that in fact if you want to have a really profitable really rewarding if you want to have the business that you want it means you have to say no to things that you don't want. Yeah right. If you say yes to every opportunity that comes your way what's gonna end up happening is you have a schedule full of projects and clients that are probably not that enjoyable not that profitable and they're taking up a lot of your time than now when that next opportunity that is you know presenting itself is the perfect fit. You can't say yes to it because you don't have the capacity or you don't have even the awareness or the focus of the mindset to to be open to that because you're so busy just treading water with your current business. So the you know what successful people find as they work down this path is that the more they say no to the wrong opportunities more than able to say yes to the right ones. And in fact the more that you're focused on the right opportunities the more they will present themselves. You know think about when you think most of us have had this experience where you go out you are buying a new car and maybe it's used it doesn't matter but you're get in a car and you know when you're looking or thinking about buying that car you don't really see that many of that car around you but the moment that you buy that car.

[00:27:42] Now all of a sudden you know it's like. Seems like anyone else has the exact same goal. Why does that happen. That happens because before you were focused on it you weren't concentrating on it. But once you have your car now you're thinking well you're in it and so you start to see it a lot more and that's the same with business opportunities. It's the same with with clients the same with potential that the more that we focus on what we really want. The more that it actually presents itself and I think this is kind of like where you know that movie the movie in the book the secret that in this whole kind of law of attraction I think this is where people kind of go a little bit wrong on that it's not as double that when you think about it it magically manifests and comes and you know and your life is transformed. It's simply that the more that you focus on something the more that you're gonna then be able to see it. Yeah it still requires you to act on it. But the more you're going to see those opportunities. And and so that is I think where I would encourage people to to at least consider an opportunity for them.

[00:28:34] And I think you're to get a clear your mind's eye what it is. What is that target customer.

[00:28:40] What is a target opportunity so that you can see it out there and then making that sale. I think it's it's kind of one of those unfortunately your time is the one true limited resource and if you fill all of your time with just anything that comes out you will never to do the projects if you really want to do and the ones that are going to be more profitable and more successful for you.

[00:28:59] So I think that Adidas tie together really really well.

[00:29:02] So we're coming up on time here is how we know what questions to ask themselves or sort of see their current situation in terms of assessing where they want to go and what they want to do to be a good candidate to work with you.

[00:29:14] And your process how what we will be will be the indicators.

[00:29:19] So yeah most of our clients reach out to us when they're looking for for greater clarity. So you know you're already an expert in what you do you're very confident you can provide value results to your clients but you want help to either really get your consulting business set up the right way you want to have a good plan and you want to ensure that you know you're not you're not throwing a whole bunch of stuff on the wall just hoping something sticks. And so instead you want help with getting clarity around your messaging clarity around your ideal client taking all of your experiences and learning how to position it and package it presented and placing value on it and price it the right way. And then also you know scaling your business so if you're someone that already has some clients and you've done some great work and maybe you're you're already generating some good revenue but you feel like there's potential that you're not reaching right now and you don't know how to get there or you don't have a good plan that is consistent and repeatable for your marketing or for your service offerings. Then we may be able to help you and you know we have a lot of case studies. Of consultants who have gone through our programs and so people are welcome to you know to reach out go to consulting success dotcom and you know you can you can you can peruse all that we have plenty of free information as well and add programs for those that are that are committed to really taking their business to the next level.

[00:30:36] Perfect. And I'll make sure that the lake is on the show here so people can click through. Michael this has been a pleasure. I learned a lot. I think people listening have learned a lot. Thank you very much for taking the time. It was a pleasure speaking.

[00:30:49] Hey Bruce thank you so much I've enjoyed the conversation as well.

[00:30:54] You've been listening to Scaling up Services with Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt. To find a full is a podcast episodes. Download the tools and worksheets and access other great content. This is a Web site that scaling up services dot com and toll free to sign up for the free newsletter scalingupservices/newsletter.