Corey Kupfer, Founder & Managing Principal, Kupfer & Associates, PLLC

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Corey Kupfer, Founder & Managing Principal, Kupfer & Associates, PLLC

Corey Kupfer is an expert strategist, dealmaker and business consultant with more than 30 years of professional negotiating experience as a successful entrepreneur, and attorney. The founder and president of Authentic Enterprises, LLC and the Authentic Business Academy, Corey is dedicated to inspiring authenticity in business through speaking, training and consulting on topics such as authentic negotiating, authentic deal-making, building authentic business relationships, and authentic conversations about difference.

Check out his podcast : Fueling Deals Podcast

Grab Corey’s book - Authentic Negotiating :



[00:00:01] You're listening to Scaling Up Services where we speak with entrepreneurs authors business experts and thought leaders to give you the knowledge and insights you need to scale your service based business faster and easier. And now here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.

[00:00:21] Welcome everyone this is Scaling Up Services. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt, I’m your host our guest today is Corey Kupfer and Corey is an attorney. He is an entrepreneur and he's an author. The book is Authentic Negotiating. We're going to hear a little bit about his story. We're going to talk about the book. We're gonna learn hopefully a little bit about how to be a better more successful negotiator or a welcome to the program. Bruce It's so great to be here with you. Yeah. You know it was like to start with the background. So you've been an attorney you've been an entrepreneur. Let's talk about that and then we can talk a little bit about the book. How did all this start for you.

[00:00:50] You know I've been in all of these of 15 and I say that not like I had the paper routes to the cutting grass of the snow before that. But but I literally had my first business with employees although they were on the right kind of.

[00:01:05] But they worked for me at age 15.

[00:01:08] I I used to deliver flyers door to door in Brooklyn when I grew up so you know like the supermarket circulars and whatever you know back in the days when they actually printed things and you know exactly. And you know I did that working for a company and they would pay me a penny apiece you know and sometimes we were really lucky and we'd get to deliver to different companies flyers at same time and then you get a penny and a half because so I would stop on the route while I was working for someone else in the local stores I would say hey you know we deliver flyers if you need somebody do the flyers we can do it. I got my own accounts and I hired my friends and and you know we had a flat delivery business when I was 15 early hustle.

[00:01:41] I loved the early hustle. So then how did you get into law. Like what was the what was the decision to get into the law become an attorney.

[00:01:48] Yeah. So you know it was interesting I mean I sort of came from you know the classic Jewish family not that this is exclusive to Jewish families but you know in my culture you know where you go to school you go to college you go to grad school of some sort you get a job and you work for somebody and you you know and you make a good living hopefully and you're a doctor or a lawyer or you know what.

[00:02:07] One of the limited choices that I think most people coming out of those cultures kind of have in terms of profession.

[00:02:13] Exactly. But for me for me it was different because a lot of people sort of get stuck into that is not what they really wanted to do in my parents master plan because I was not a forward looking kid at all. I was not a forward looking kid. I mean I just I was a really bright kid I did well in school without having to work super hard. I was more interested in hanging out with my friends and then you know girls as I got older I got to stuff but my parents were smart enough to sort of guide me. And you know grew up in Brooklyn and there was a special program at Tilden High School which was that school I was zoned for but it was a law politics and community affairs program they called it LPC. Interesting. And my parents said you should do this and they sort of signed me up for it. You know I didn't really know what it was I wouldn't have done it without them. And I got into it. You know we would do. I mean it's interesting parts of one that I just don't do now but it got me interested in it. So like we would do mock trials and we would go visit prisons and we would go visit and then we had a mock presidential election. And I you know and I was one of the candidates and I was.

[00:03:10] So I think that got me hot.

[00:03:11] So going into college unlike a lot of people who go frankly to law school or to you know business school for MBA or whatever and it's sort of the next natural step because they're pretty smart and they don't know what they want to do and they'll go get more education. I actually came into college knowing I wanted to be a lawyer of course in hindsight. I had no idea what that really meant. For whatever reason I I had it in my head that I wanted to be a lawyer and I went through through college you know with the intention of going to law school.

[00:03:34] Yeah well and I think law you know it's one of those interesting degrees that it applies to so many things. I mean every facet of business every industry you know every kind of heart of those things has some kind of legal aspect. So I think it's actually a great training. You know regardless of if you're going to practice law formally or not it's a good training is good training on thinking about how to think how to kind of organize things how to create solutions how to think through the details. So I I think that's a great setup I think for anyone going into the general business community. But you actually chose to practice law right. So you went from there into law right.

[00:04:08] Yes sir I did. You know I went straight to college law school job I came out in the 80s from very good law school so I had like my choice of you know for jobs whatever I did that typical path. But I sort of I always had in the back of my mind that I didn't want to work for somebody for the rest of my life and I didn't have any models for it because my parents were both employed you know. They weren't entrepreneurs but there was something about me like from day one the politics in the face time and the B.S. Just Yeah you know I I didn't take to it Well I mean I could I knew I could play the game I could play a game over but it just wasn't authentic to who I was. And so literally like less than six years six years out of school I left a big law from practice I hung out a shingle I had no clients. The firm I was with had long term institutional clients. And they weren't going anywhere and it was it was actually you know late 1991 when I announced them than I did in the early 90s 92 when I started. And that was a recession. People you know yeah I remember I may not be old enough or recession. Yeah and somebody told me I was crazy. You know I was I was making I was about to get a raise I think it was you know to over sick you know like a hundred somewhat thousand which in 1992 was I was a lot of what I wanted. Now that was not good money but it was a whole lot of money back. And I told me I was crazy. What are you doing. How are you. You know you have this great job. You have no clients. Your. I applied for several credit cards above the ones I had it was paying my run on credit cards. Did everything you are supposed to do.

[00:05:31] You know this is not the advice portion of the program.

[00:05:34] No this is not any of us. Well yeah well it isn't it isn't likely.

[00:05:38] Frankly I think if you have if you have a dream and you have the passion to go for it you willing to take the risk and listen. I was single at the time I had no family to worry about no whatever so I had parents who loved me I could always go back and live with them. The truth is you know I mean I gotta be honest. Yes was it a big risk could have failed but I mean my safety net compared to the risk that a lot of other people who really have real rest of their lives was you know it was know I would have been fine it would not have been homeless.

[00:06:03] Yes. Yes exactly. And so that got you started your practice I'm sure. So what were the biggest challenge about that. You mentioned you didn't have any clients. You mentioned that you know you're kind of starting out but nothing like what did you learn.

[00:06:13] I guess you know in the pursuing you know months and years about how to actually start professional practice because that's you know it's not easy.

[00:06:21] Well listen the first word that comes to mind is hustle. I mean I you know I mean I know it's sort of an overused word and whatever but frankly that was the one thing I had I mean I had I had some connections but not you know like I didn't come from money at income from a background like that I had made some professional connections. But you know in the legal business when you're you know six years out of school that's not that long especially with the type of stuff I was doing. You know I was doing big corporate contractual deals. I mean that kind of stuff. So the kind of clients I had wasn't like that I'm not disparaging any of the other areas of law. But it's a little different if you're in sort of in a consumer individual practice area. When I first started my firm I did what I needed to do. So I actually did I'm sure I did some bankruptcy I did someone Ted and I did some but you know I mean I did a bowel thing. I mean I don't even know. And I was calling my friends because I had no idea what I was doing but I. But I always knew I would figure it out. But you know what the intention was and quickly frankly you know after about a year I was able to buy a year and a half I bought a partner because I was able to get back to doing what I really want to do.

[00:07:20] But the point was so I had so it took a lot of hustle. I was at every networking event that existed. I mean in every state in the tristate area. I mean one of my long term clients now who is about to sell its third company is a guy I met at a networking event in Stamford Connecticut to Greenwich Connecticut one of guys. Right. And it was just some random thing because I just went in if there were gonna be people there and there was a network I went to. I also I also signed up there was some of these union legal players so the teachers union had a legal plan and they would send you you could get on the panel or on the list and then they would send you referrals. And I remember back that I think most of my friends were in charge of one hundred and fifty hundred seventy five an hour and like my level you know back that they were paying sixty five dollars an hour and my friends from the big firms and you know said to me why you work for sixty five miles an hour when you're billing rate is like a hundred seventy five. No no you don't understand the math. My choice is not between one seventy five.

[00:08:16] My choice is between zero. But for a lot of my time that was you know.

[00:08:22] So look I think if it's a consistent referral source and you don't have to do a whole lot of work selling it otherwise it's not bad. I mean you know the 175 always builds in you know for every hour that you're building you're spending two hours you know trying to get that out.

[00:08:35] Oh no question. It was they were sending me business. It helped me get established it helped me. You know they're getting referrals from those people I became one of the top two referral attorneys in New York City on that plan. And then you know a couple of years later I think I sort of facing down frankly like two years later because we had gotten so busy. But it was a great way to start. And listen my motto was so it was hustle. But then the other big thing was you know listen this is this is a little scary but I was willing to say yes to business even if I did not know how to do it. But here's the key thing because I think you can go to an extreme on this and running some of the trouble. You know it would have been. So what I what I said was I don't need to know how to do it. Now to say yes but I need to be confident I could figure it out by the time I needed to do it for somebody because I wasn't willing not to do a great job. So my test was will I will I be able to know it by the time I have to do it or not do I know it now.

[00:09:28] Yeah yeah. And I learned can I learn it fast enough to do it fast enough to do your job to deliver on the work.

[00:09:34] Yeah. I think that makes sense. Yeah I think a lot of a lot of good stories in here around early stage businesses and companies you know whether you're in a law firm or in any kind of professional service which is you know the beginning gets you need revenues.

[00:09:46] So it's not even always profitable. It's not you know your strategic accounts like it's just getting revenues in the door. And then you start to you know as you get that deal flow you know you start figuring out right what do I really like to do. What can I really add value to. Where can I make significant profit. How can I differentiate myself. Where did you start to see you know the opportunities for you to kind of focus and zero in from a legal services practice.

[00:10:10] Yeah I mean so you know for me I had you know previous to that I was a corporate deal lawyer and you know contracts deals right. So I knew that's what I wanted to do it's what I love to do. I had actually thought of my doing some management side label work. I thought that's what I wanted to be coming out of law school. And I quickly found out you know I won't tell a story rather. But within the first year I ended up doing deals and I did you know I was on some big everyday deals and some secondary public offerings financing deals and leveraged buyouts and I got so excited about that stuff. So I knew that's what I wanted to do. But you know like the farm my left represented for example GCSE general ledger Credit Corp. You don't have you know one hundred million dollar deal you know. I mean they were handing a deal like that to Corey Kupfer who was working out is out of a studio apartment on the Upper East Side and renting a conference room by the hour down to sixty seven Wall Street. Yeah that wasn't gonna happen you know. But I knew that was the kind of work I wanted to do and I built up to it and I and you know within a year and a half frankly I had. So you know here's another lesson within a year and a half I had more business that I could personally handle. Good. But I did not have enough business for two people but I still made the jump at that point and brought in.

[00:11:12] I joke that the guy who became my first partner was the only only other guy stupid enough to leave a major law firm job and not know where his next dollar was coming from and joined me as a partner. So that's how the truth was toothless. He was a guy that I had worked with previously he was a litigator and I was doing some scut obligations I had you know I and I was you know wasn't what I want to be doing. And I had built up enough work for about one and a half people. And I think I mean I was barely holding on with that. And then you know the thing is it's an example of repeatedly where I think in business you have to make a leap of faith. Yeah right. And my leap of faith was to bring in this partner who I handed off all of the litigation all that stuff I don't want to be doing. I literally we just did a 50 50 partnership because frankly you know although I had built something I had built body you know there was a lot of value there. In you know I took a hit because. And listen you know I want to talk about like I left the job over six figures I mean I netted seventeen thousand dollars my first year I did it I did it thirty six thousand dollars my second year and then it's seventy eight thousand dollars my third year.

[00:12:16] You notice I don't I didn't forget those numbers and I buy you dinner stone as best as.

[00:12:22] And by my fourth year I was making more than I would have had you know at the bigger firm and I never looked back. Yeah but a year and a half in you know when I had made what I was still big at seventeen thousand dollars and one of the reasons why I only jumped to 38 the next year or 36 next year instead of more was because I had brought in a partner and basically handed off half the farm to him. But I knew that you know sometimes you have to make a leap of faith to grow and that's been a theme of my life from my other businesses throughout the rest of my time because you know when is it time to make those leaps of faith.

[00:12:53] Yeah well I think it's always that calculation. You know what is the calculus for figuring that out. I mean there's always a sort of a short term loss to longer term gain but really kind of figuring out what those are. Yeah. I mean look I. Very few people that I've spoken to that I've left big firms to start their own companies or left you know well-paying stable jobs to start their own companies you know have made more money in year one or you two or three. You know it usually takes three four or five years. Now though the benefit is years six seven eight nine ten in huge rewards. Absolutely. But you know you've got to take that short term and apart part of it is you know doing the calculus. Part of it is adjusting your life to be able to run those lower numbers. But I think that's really what separates out kind of people who are you know cut from the cloth of the corporate environment versus really want to be entrepreneurs and really want to kind of strike out on their own. You know so kudos to you and you know congratulations on this consensus for actually launching that and getting that practice going. So ultimately what was the practice that you or what area of law did you spend most of your career on as an attorney.

[00:13:52] Yeah. So I mean and it's still you know a big part of what we do. Mostly what we do. I mean I like strategy negotiating deals advice is the way I look at it. So. So we were really that corporate side. Yeah. The governor said we work with companies to help them grow and it's through contracts deals of various types. And we still did it now and we and we work with clients across industries. We have you know a bunch of financial services clients but we also have tech and you name it the restaurant and I've done deals in every industry and that's mainly what I focus on that we do. We also do the ancillary stuff around what businesses need. So they need it like you know at least you know for their office space we do that. We have you know I have somebody who does trademark work intellectual property work for them we do anything that our business clients need. But we don't do any of the other stuff.

[00:14:35] Yeah no. And I think that makes sense. I think that's pretty typical as a company as a core service offering that they market and they position themselves around. And then once they have clients you know it's only service them in other ways but I'm assuming you don't you don't go out with those services from a marketing point of view it's just things that you provide because you know your clients need. That's right.

[00:14:51] So let's talk about the book. So talk to me about when did the book first come up with you. I mean when did you first kind of think oh I should be thinking about or writing a book like what was the impetus for you.

[00:15:00] Yeah. So I mean listen one of the things I literally negotiate every day now at some level I say everybody negotiates every day because you negotiate with your significant other and your kids and your. But I mean I negotiate professionally every day because I always have a deal a contract going on I've always there's other recline in over that time I developed a philosophy and approach the way I do it that's somewhat different and it's much war between that and some of the personal growth and business growth work I've done that focuses on the internal game right. I mean I'm just being back to philosophy I do believe that the worlds manifest from within the right that we create everything we attract everything we know from within. And so my approach to negotiating is that way mostly negotiating training out there is very tactical you know if they do this that you do that. And then this counter tactics to the counter tactics and a lot of that stuff is frankly pretty manipulative and it doesn't work out. I mean you know at some level it'll work but any kind of sophisticated level it doesn't work. I mean listen there are some good tactical you know trainings and advice out there. I'm not saying tactics are bad but fundamentally what I learned is if you go into a negotiation from a place of desperation or scarcity of fear or ego or whatever. Right. All that stuff that I don't care what tactics you put on top of that you're not going to be successful.

[00:16:15] Yeah. So I learned that if I didn't do. I mean I sort of myself like when do I get triggered into negotiation. And when you if you get triggered you get you know you're going to get thrown off and you're not going to get the best result. So I did the work myself and then I would you know coach clients through it because sometimes I handle negotiations for the clients sometimes I'll nail him be handling the aspects of the negotiation I'll be behind the scenes you know helping coach them and train them. And so these philosophies really developed and and frankly you know it was sort of the back of my mind but at some point you know my wife loves of other clients of mine business people were just encouraging me like you know you're like users get great results yourself and I'm all about this you should write a book. You and everybody says everybody says you are. And we also we want to write a book but you know it's a it's a project that's a commitment. But finally you know sort of the Virgin sets up in the bay which sounds horrible but she. Well she said listen you you are you have too much to offer here you're too good at this you cannot die with this information did you say you can't take this to the grave please.

[00:17:18] I was like wait I think I'm flat I've been around for a while. Yeah yeah I get it I get it. I think she meant that in a loving way but she totally.

[00:17:26] So I like that idea that I'm being told by the external world or kind of having this evidence presented to you from the external world that look you've got you've got something to offer. You know a book about what you've learned around negotiating seems to be would be a great benefit to folks. Tell us about how. Like how did you decide what you were actually gonna write about. I think it's easy. It's not so easy to write a book. I think it's it's hard to write a good book. It's still hard to write bad books but it's hard to read a good book. How did you go about really figuring out what this book was going to be about and who was going to be for I guess like what it was your audience who did you want to write for. What did you want to tell them.

[00:17:59] Yeah I mean so I had a head start in that I was already speaking you know so. So I've done a lot of speaking over the years is sort of came organically at a law firm originally and now I have actually a separate company that's speaking and training company and I'm a member of the National Speaker Association a professional level. But even back that I was I was you know I was speaking on the ready so I had a PowerPoint out an outline I had you know and that's very different than a book but it but it actually basically gave me the first outline of a book. So I really knew what I wanted to write about now obviously how you make it into a book and how you flesh it out and I you know I work with a a hybrid business publisher that had you know co writers and editors that helped me with it. But you know to your point the great thing about working with those kind of companies is that they move you along and it's a process that they try. You know they make sure that you're gonna get the book out. And I actually had to slow the process because listen we've joked about this right around the oh especially entrepreneurs organization which we've both been a member of right now.

[00:18:52] You know there's this conversation that most business books should be an article worth the value and then they have another hundred fifty pages.

[00:19:00] And I was you know I was so intense that nobody could ever say that about my book yet there was value through the entire thing. So frankly I slowed the process with my publisher and did two major rewrites on the book one just you know myself you know when I was just I really wanted to be great and I also came up with some new stuff that I want to put in. And then I had some people read the book I had you know or eight people who agreed to read it and give me input and you know I heard things like We want more stories you know that kind of stuff so I did another rewrite that not only that incorporated their information and also my visual changes so you know it it took them a year and a half of time to get it done and get it to the point where I'd be happy with it and where I really thought it provided value for page one to the last page.

[00:19:41] Yeah. And I like that idea that it takes a couple of rewrites. You know the first the first version is not the final one and getting some feedback and really taking some time to think about it. I think that oftentimes is a big difference between you know books that really resonate you know and have some depth and the ones that you really really should just be you know a thousand word article that I don't really need to read. You know a hundred and fifty pages.

[00:20:01] So let's talk about the content a little bit let's give some sort of takeaways from the listeners here. So you know for folks that are and I think you know the service spaces are fascinating for me from a negotiating point of view because many times it falls into this category of what I call a kind of relationship negotiating right. You're not it's not an individual transaction I'm not buying a car negotiating with folks that I may have an ongoing relationship may do several deals with. I may have ongoing entourage you know things like that. So and that's a little more complicated or at least a little more multifaceted kind of negotiation. So what are some typical ways. I guess maybe start with some of the things that you see people do doing wrong or ways in which negotiations fail. Ways in which people misstep in negotiation what are the things that you feel are common out there.

[00:20:43] Yeah. So I'll get to some of the very basic level which is that most people have a framework that they are looking to win in a negotiation. Right. Interesting. And even the concept of win win which you know came in you know years ago. Bill Murray and his team and now getting to ask and that kind of stuff which is great I think is not problematic the way they wrote it but it's probably back the way people apply because I think people the minute they get the concept the win in their mind they really gets engaged et cetera. And when I talk about is that the objective of a negotiation should not be to win it. It should be to achieve your objectives in fact I often will allow the other side to feel like they've won because I have no ego at it as long as I've achieved all my objectives. So you know you want to switch that what you said about you know in business these are often ongoing relationships you negotiating with you know clients and vendors and employees and business partners whatever you're going to run their relationship with. You have to remember that negotiation is only a small part of the entire relationship. And if you even if you have leverage and you crush somebody that relationship's not going to work out they're going to be looking again to get it back in some way.

[00:21:44] Yeah you're going to pay for it one way or another one way and that's that's the first thing to keep in mind.

[00:21:49] The other a couple of I mean my core framework for authentic negotiating is clarity. It's CDE. The first one to see is clarity. Right. And people. This is the thing I do multi-million dollar negotiations you know from small to very big you know and all on the spectrum.

[00:22:06] People go into those negotiations without close to the level of clarity that you should have on exactly what you want what you don't want to talk to me more about clarity when you say being clear or getting getting clear on this what is it that we're trying to get clear on before we go into the negotiation.

[00:22:20] Yeah I want to get clear on a truly Well you know why are you even in the negotiation and then what do you want to get out of it. Right. Because people get so engaged and off track so you know it takes a deep inquiry like if you're looking to buy a couple to sell your company for example or even you looking to bring in a partner you look at it you know even if it's just doing a some sort of marketing contract with somebody D it's so easy to jump into that and just try to negotiate the terms and you think you will but you haven't spent a lot of time digging deep on really why am I selling my company right. And I've seen deals fall apart because the other side isn't able to answer that why because the person isn't even clear on that why. Right. And I've solved deals for example where where sellers with the deal look like it was dying and couldn't figure out why. Like the money seem right. That structure seem right and you figure out that by letting the guy continue to come into his office because you know what he didn't realize is that he needs to feel useful. Yeah still. Or that he doesn't want to be at home with his spouse.

[00:23:18] Exactly. Okay. All right. And if you don't solve for that.

[00:23:22] So you know so the what. You know unless you get clarity on the objectives and then he's not going to you know it's not a lot of back to sit down and say What am I. Jack this is I still need to feel useful. You know that's not like what's going to automatically come but what often you have to get tired of trying to figure out how to get a deal done and to have them really work. So that's the clarity piece. The other piece of clarity is what I call true bottom line and that is I ask people all the time Hey what do you want. Let's let's take a sale of a company situation. Now I see what the company. Oh I'd love to get 10 million dollars for it. Okay you know what a million whatever you don't use is not of a scale you want a thousand also but 10 million else for it. Okay what's you know that's your ideal.

[00:23:58] What's your bottom line. Okay. Nine million five hundred thousand. Okay yeah. And they pull that out of the air but they don't.

[00:24:05] So I set it up. Okay so let's assume all of the other significant terms of the deal because in addition to price this structure maybe you want key employees to stay on the payment terms you know whatever it maybe you want the names to buy whatever your objectives on whatever you major ones are let's say you achieve every single one every all of the other material things important things to you you get out of.

[00:24:25] But instead of nine point five million they offer you nine million four hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine dollars ninety nine cents. Do you take the deal and everybody's reaction of course is yes just a bit heavy Corey. Yeah. Okay what about a penny less than that.

[00:24:40] Yeah yeah. You end up with zero. Yeah. So there's literally gonna be a number a penny less than right.

[00:24:47] Or if you know it's delivery of the goods. You know a date not a day more than an that they elicit. And this isn't coming from a place of rigidity it's coming from a place of clarity on regularly truly what your bottom line is. And almost nobody does the internal work to get that level of clarity and that's what I push people to do because one it makes the decisions during negotiation easy it becomes binary. Right. Number two you design your entire negotiating strategy around you need to know the bottom line if the bottom line is really you know eight point seven million and not nine point five you probably get to start the negotiations in first place. Yeah. So it's crucial to know. So that's the clarity piece.

[00:25:23] Yeah. And I imagine it's it's really important or helpful to do that before you get into the throes of negotiating. I mean they try to find is trying to do that when things are heated and you've time pressure and got to cut the deal in the next five minutes.

[00:25:34] You know that then it's almost impossible to get that kind of clarity when so so doing that before it seems like a pretty important step.

[00:25:40] It's the reason why it's C D E the C comes first. Yeah because the clarity has to come first the D detachment which is how do you stay attached to the outcome. Right. So ultimately you can you know you and I are negotiating the deal I should have a preference we get the deal done. Because why am I wasting my time talking to you if I don't have a preference. Yeah but ultimately I should be equally OK if we get a deal done or we don't. Right because it either meets my criteria that I've gotten clarity on my objectives I've got Gloria or it doesn't. And if it doesn't it doesn't mean that process fills a bad guy or you're a jerk or you're whatever it just means your objectives and my objectives don't meet right now we're not we won't do a deal right now maybe we'll do something in the future maybe we won't. So you need that's attachment. That's really hard. So how do you do that.

[00:26:20] I mean I guess my first thought is that it's it's having some kind of vision of an alternative outcome that doesn't include the deal. That's OK. Like it's I think it's hard to go into these deals if you're only vision for the future is the deal being done then you're left with you know uncertainty and vagueness and you know vulnerability right. So how do you really get that level of detachment what's the process.

[00:26:40] Yeah. So I think I think listen practically looking at and saying hey you know what all the old sorrows but listen sometimes the eternal love is just not doing it all right now. Right. And so I think it ultimately comes down to trust. And I think if you would do that work to get that level of clarity that my fundamental philosophy is that if you're not getting what you need then you just trust that it's not meant to be. And I believe that and you know I'm not. I do believe that there are other opportunities that will show up if you you may not be able to see them right now. But the problem is if you fill your time energy space you know whatever you want to call it with something that's not ideal you don't leave room for something better to show up. Yeah. So you need to trust in that and then listen there are practical ways I mean everybody does definitely always ask people Hey what is it that you do in life when you're sort of you know stressed or thrown off or whatever that gets you calm some people it's meditating. So people go out for a run. So people bounce things off their friends. So people you know whatever I say OK let's start there let's do that you know. And you know prior to negotiation to get your head clear and then I do have a tool in the book that we probably don't have time to go into in detail but if people read the book there's something called a CPR which is context purpose and results and it's a framework that helps people not only get clear but also stay detached from the outcome.

[00:27:56] Yeah excellent. So I get clarity I get detachment. So the third one was equilibrium. Yeah. So so equilibrium talked to me about that.

[00:28:03] So that is I mean you sort of alluded to it before you say hey you know you got to get the clarity before you're in the heat of the negotiation. So you know you've gotten your clarity you go through the negotiations attached from the outcome but then how do you maintain your equilibrium. You're in the heated negotiation somebody tells you your company is not worth half that or so. Some crazy tack to go in what they you know or you know whatever you know whatever it is. And you know listen we're human. We're not robots. We get triggered sometimes we get upset we get fearful we get our ego comes up. So how do we in the moment during the negotiation keep that equilibrium and not get thrown off because the bottom line is if you're in any kind of any of those emotions right. If you're triggered in any way then you're not at your best right. You're not able to listen. You're not able to think straight. You're not able to be creative and you know you're at a disadvantage. So one of the things that that CPR tool does it's in the book is I have people not only write that thing out but because it's your context your purpose for negotiation all the results you want. And they that people actually carry it with them. So one tool is hey take a break right. You know you can take a break say hey listen I go to the restroom they'll take a lunch break let's give you reconvene later. So first of all you can just breathe. You can take a walk etc. but you can also reconnect to your CPR tool to get clear and then remember this is the thing. If you let your it's great you've got clarity it's great you detach coming in but if you get your equilibrium get thrown off you lose your detachment and use your connections your clarity and all goes out the window.

[00:29:31] Yeah. So you've got to be able to keep that that even this center of this that connection to your objectives and not be thrown off.

[00:29:38] Negotiation. Yeah it's fascinating. I realized one of my tracks are one of the what my indicators that I can and I kind of pay attention to during these kind of missions is my peripheral vision like I notice that when when I start to lose my peripheral vision it means that I'm being triggered and sometimes I don't even realize it but that's my cue.

[00:29:56] You know it's like a you know I've got to take a break or I gotta start breathing I got to slow things down because if that if I start getting that tunnel vision I know that I'm not at my best I know I'm not really processing what's happening or really considering the options I'm going to start reacting to things and that's not often not least does not often lead to the best outcomes. That's brilliant. You know the book is great and you know I've gone through it. There's a lot of great tools there's are gonna be great stories if people want to find out more about you about the book what's the best way to get that information.

[00:30:23] Yeah. So one of the hubs they go to is just that's C O R E Y K U P F E on there there's a few things one that we all to you know get some my content etc.. There's links to the book which they can get on Amazon or you know it wasn't all a combo whatever they can link through there. There's also by the way a an authentic negotiation success quiz that they can take 10 questions to see how much of it authentically or show that they are. And soon to be I have a podcast logic in February of 2019. I'll be right around the right time. So it's good timing which is called the fueling Gill's podcast and there'll be a page up there soon on that as well. So Corey comfort the guy that car a good heart. The law firm and then I'm back Corey Kupfer on all the social media channels like Facebook Twitter perfect.

[00:31:09] Now I'll have links to all those in the show notes and you send me the link to the podcast when it goes live. I'll include that as well so people can click through and get all that information for free. This has been a pleasure. I've learned a lot. I really appreciate it. I had a lot of fun. Great to be with a Bruce

[00:31:24] You've been listening to Scaling up Services with Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt. To find a full is a podcast episodes. Download the tools and worksheets and access other great content. This is a Web site that scaling up services dot com and toll free to sign up for the free newsletter scalingupservices/newsletter.