Chris Voss, CEO, Author, Negotiation Expert, Black Swan Group

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Chris Voss, CEO, Author, Negotiation Expert, Black Swan Group

Chris Voss is CEO of the Black Swan Group and author of the national best-seller "Never Split The Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It," which was named one of the seven best books on negotiation. A 24-year veteran of the FBI, Chris retired as the lead international kidnapping negotiator.

Drawing on his experience in high-stakes negotiations, his company specializes in solving business communication problems using hostage negotiation solutions. Their negotiation methodology focuses
on discovering the “Black Swans,” small pieces of information that have a huge effect on an outcome. Chris and his team have helped companies secure and close better deals, save money, and solve internal communication problems.

Chris has been featured in TIME, Business Insider, Entrepreneur, Inc., Fast Company, Fortune, The Washington Post, SUCCESS Magazine, Squawk Box, CNN, ABC News and more.

Grab his book Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It
Subscribe to The Black Swan Group’s weekly newsletter, text FBIEMPATHY send to 22828


[00:00:01] You're listening to Scaling Up Services where we speak with entrepreneurs authors business experts and thought leaders to give you the knowledge and insights you need to scale your service based business faster and easier. And now here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.

[00:00:20] Welcome everyone, this is Scaling Up Services, I’m Bruce Eckfeldt I’m your host and our guest today is Chris Voss and Chris is CEO and founder of The Black Swan Group. We're gonna find out a little bit more about his background and he is the author of Never Split The Difference which is one of my favorite books on negotiating and it's a little different take. I mean I'm excited to have this. I think we're gonna get some good insight and some good perspective on approaching negotiation. So with that. Chris welcome to the program.

[00:00:45] Thanks Bruce. Happy to be here. Thank you for having me on.

[00:00:48] Yeah. So what are the things I love about your book and I've got a lot of business folks business friends that talk about never split the difference. But the curious thing for me or the thing that I love about it is that is your background because you don't come out of business right you're coming out of FBI you know different a whole different world when it comes to negotiating you know in business we're trying to get you know another 2 percent on a deal. You know that's a different case than the kind of stuff you have to deal with. So what do you tell us a little bit about your background and how the book came about and then we can get into some of the concepts.

[00:01:21] Well it's true I am a recovering FBI agent.

[00:01:25] I've been in recovery for about 11 years now.

[00:01:29] Yeah.

[00:01:30] Fbi hostage negotiator was a lead international kidnapping negotiator and really one of the big differences because there's kind of there's kind of two tools in all this negotiations. I mean there's a tactical application of empathy mercenaries empathy the empathy that Stephen Covey was really talking about so first understand the BE UNDERSTOOD WHAT DO YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BE UNDERSTOOD you're trying to get the point across. That was a fundamental basis of bank robbery hostage negotiations a barricade hostage negotiations whereas a hostage negotiator wanted to get everything and you know as a friend of mine used to say we sold jail sentences and we had by hostage negotiators the ultimate cold call.

[00:02:15] And see the thing is though we repeat customers. So we can't line of people and a lot of hostage negotiations you say whatever you want because it's a one off you're never going to see that guy again. Well that's not true.

[00:02:27] If they you know if we talked only pride in killing anybody if they didn't kill anybody there were no acts of violence and they're going to do that much time in jail they're going to get up we're going to say yeah.

[00:02:36] So we had repeat customer. Oh I see. I see. Interesting.

[00:02:40] There was there was actually a situation where one guy who had been on the run for about 10 days and committed four homicides occurred in Baltimore one of the largest manhunts in the history that city be largest manhunt when it cornered him. Baltimore County negotiators were a little limped up the phone was a little rattled and a bad guy literally said to him you're not doing a good job you're supposed to be establishing a rapport with me.

[00:03:04] This is coaching this is the the perpetrator coaching the hostage negotiator element yeah because he'd been barricaded before.

[00:03:13] Yeah we know we get repeat customers.

[00:03:15] I mean let's talk just a little bit about sort of the history of that whole kind of negotiating because I think I mean there's been developments right.

[00:03:22] I mean that the whole kind of strategy that you use as a hostage negotiator you know over the last 50 60 70 years I mean what have you learned. I mean I'm assuming psychology and all these kind of things have had a big impact on the strategy of negotiating in these kind of situations.

[00:03:36] Well there wasn't much outside of practical application before neuroscience that really had any kind of impact and neuroscience has actually told us we write all hostage negotiation first thought that it was an honor it was B.S. and you know who is the best PSA. And so when they first admitted it back to the 70s they went to psychologists. You know they went to business and they kind of tried bargaining skills and then they found out that wasn't really bargaining it was crisis intervention. It was emotional intelligence is what it really was. It's emotional intelligence. And so the first big shift was to get really psychology is not you know it's going to sound harsh. You said college I apologize to you I was going to get to have a hard time argument me psychology was never really that much about emotional intelligence. And so we began to actively apply emotional intelligence just by trial and error learning the hard way and the real big shift was probably along around the late mid to late 90s away from B.S. ing psychology much more into I'm not calling psychology B.S.. Those are two separate things. Much more into crisis intervention which now we just look at as emotional intelligence and it's kind of interesting how it's come full circle in the business community because now there's an old saying IQ gets your hired e q will get you fired if you don't have a Q You're screwed. Yeah you rescued me I'll get you in the door but your emotional intelligence your application of emotional intelligence differentiates you from everybody else and that's really what what hostage negotiation always was it was emotional intelligence Yeah.

[00:05:18] And what basic strategies I mean. You know when you look at it from an AQ lens what is the process or when you're dealing with a hostage negotiation what are the what is the basic kind of levels or process that you're trying to work through from a process point of view.

[00:05:32] Well we try and what we try and what we're not a black sworn group called Trust based influence. We're trying to establish trust based inputs. Now there's it's it seems indirect but it's a massive time saver. And the other thing to the same trust based influence is dribble. You know it's when you have a great relationship with somebody it's it's a business colleague that you guys only touch base every few months for you're on the same page immediately. Most sales if you will traditional sales this is you know this. Yes momentum or this momentum selling crap nonsense. Yeah. And you got to be in a room with the person the whole time to see that through. Now that's not physically possible. That's why so many deals fall apart because as soon as you get out of the room that's all. Yes logic crap that you're using is people through you fall through. And they realize a that's what they really they get a sense of unease. Yeah. And and they realize you know this this logic fable that you spot on them it doesn't really apply when they get back to their office that are real problems and they fail to follow through that's where yes is nothing without how.

[00:06:38] Yeah. So it just it just doesn't hold up when once they kind of go back to their normal conditions normal environments. That doesn't hold up at all. So talk to me about trust if we if we're if we're using this trust based influence strategy. What what are the elements of trust but why. What do I do or what. What do I need to have to build that trust.

[00:06:54] Well the first thing is really substitute the word predictability for trust. We want to know what's gonna happen. We're a lot more comfortable with what's going to happen and we want the person we're talking to not to be perfect to be accountable. Which means you wouldn't get them on the phone and really don't waste our time. So and then they've demonstrated competence which is not the same as confident.

[00:07:16] Already it's a competence versus confidence. OK.

[00:07:19] Exactly. A lot of people say know I'm going to be I want to be really confident like an ex girlfriend of mine. She used to like to say I may not always be right but I'm never in doubt one of my favorite phrases. Yeah but you know what that person's confident they're not competent.

[00:07:36] Which is better than me right and not have doubt. But yeah yeah.

[00:07:39] But I mean you know somebody has to know something you know instead of bullshit them you say you know it's a really good question. I'm going to I'm going to find out. I don't know. And here and then you go all right. So here's what's important to you because every question really reveals what what's important to people we've got to make sure you get that right. There's an old phrase a question behind the question you asked me a question if I if I answer it initially the end of my answer is always going to be what makes you ask. Interesting because I really got to find out that I dialed in on the right topic and I would say at least two thirds of the time you didn't ask me the question right which means my answer was flawed. So if I leave if I leave out what makes you ask I'll think I've answered your question when in fact unfortunately you didn't really either. You just didn't ask me the question right.

[00:08:29] Like you know I'd like that because I think there's kind of this assumption that the the person that I that we're speaking to or negotiating with or without having this conversation with is is perfectly clear and perfectly knowledgable and I think that idea of you know what makes you ask question is kind of this acknowledgment that they may not know exactly what they want to hear what they're trying to figure out. And it shifts it to a little bit more of a sort of consultative approach or you're you're asking the question but you're also finding out what new information or what new questions that poses to the person and how do you continue that conversation. And we use that and sales a lot. I mean just kind of that whole you know consultative selling you know half the job is helping the customer figure out how to buy not just trying to figure out nice sell them right. OK. So that's anything else with trust.

[00:09:15] Anything anything else goes on into this kind of concept of trust and predictability and here's a crazy thing about predictability. Most who realize you're going to call typically you're your implementation relationship or even you're selling simple and you only call them one or two times when you have good news when you have bad news that makes your contact completely unpredictable. You don't know when you're going to have either.

[00:09:41] Yeah. In fact it's always a surprise almost the reverse. It's like when I when I hear from you I know I'm going to get a surprise. It's like the opposite of predictability.

[00:09:49] They go exactly right. So on a regular basis like I get a business relationship. Now in this company you know they keep me in the dark until they have something good to report. Consequently while I'm in the dark you know I'm like guard the clock is ticking I'm going to I'm going to start the implementation on my own. Then they won't have any idea how many problems are caused for me in this relationship I can't I can't be kept in the dark but that's what ends up happening. And so if we just had a regular touch base call once a week on the status and even if there's nothing new a touch base it says there's nothing new. I'm like we went out we did this we did this we did this we got nothing out of it now. Then formed the unpredictability is gone. But most people won't do that because they feel like I you know if I go out and I talk about my efforts without results then I'm going to look stupid. I'm look like I'm failing. I'm not going to do that. The flip side of it is that ignores human nature. Now they're losing my trust every single day that they do that to me.

[00:10:51] Yeah I can see the dilemma though. You know as a kind of service provider it's like yeah you want to. Well a you don't want to have a call if you don't have you know at least relevant information ideally positive information you know kind of the call without any substantive meaning. You know it's difficult. And the flipside is when when you do get something good you want to call right away. So you know saving it sort of saving it to the status call I can see it being a challenge.

[00:11:18] But yeah I mean it gets you if you're really if your focus is building trust rather than just trying to get a one off win or deal with a one off situation establishing a regular routine that's going to build that build up better and really things like that.

[00:11:30] I mean I'm in my company one of the munchies we live by is ignore human nature at your peril. Yeah. You know you may not like it but there's no avoidance of this issue is it keeping people in the dark. Uncertainty is it is a daily deterioration of trust. Yeah yeah no avoiding that.

[00:11:47] Well it seems like many business environments now are you know just so much more you know kind of complex and dynamic and you know business is moving you know just more quickly these days it seems like there's a more more of a chance of that that kind of dynamic is increasing in the general business world.

[00:12:03] Yes it is. And that's why you know there's there's. That's why 80 percent of the people out there are mediocre and only like the old superstars.

[00:12:10] Yeah yeah. A players. So you've had this long legacy in the hostage negotiation situations. How have you been playing into businesses. I mean let's talk about some of the services you provide. What kind of companies are you're working with. What are you helping them do and then what are you What are you teaching them what are you leveraging in terms of the insights that you've developed over time yet the people who were coaching to the negotiations and killing it.

[00:12:34] I mean they're just killing it. We we work with companies across the spectrum. We we prefer to work with high performance individuals which is not the same thing. You know there's a reason of 40 percent of the Fortune 500 are gonna be gone in 10 years. Most companies you know their culture is a mess. They don't have a learning culture. You know we run into company after company that leads your development to you if you want to do better it's on you you know. And a lot of there a lot of the people at the top of their company are like you know look I developed myself on my own and that's how I got better at general projects and pious crap.

[00:13:12] You know I took I took my career into my hands and therefore everyone else should too. Everyone else should too.

[00:13:19] And then simultaneously they say themselves. Why is our turnover lower. Why do why do people leave us. Why are the talented people leaving.

[00:13:26] You know it's funny I run into that one. So I end up coaching a lot of founders and CEOs.

[00:13:31] And oftentimes we have this conversation and now they'll be complaining about somebody and they're like well they didn't figure it out on their own they should have done the research. You know they should have just you know a really good person would have done that. That's how I did it. I'm like oh wait a minute. You know if that's how you did it. If you want more people like you around you. How is that going to play out. What did you do. You left your company and started a company

[00:13:54] Like you're going to find a whole bunch of people that want to leave you. Right. Right right. Right. So yeah that's kind of rejection bias is huge. Yeah.

[00:14:02] And then you know and then the ramifications of that cause you know one of the theories is you know what if we invest in them and they leave us and what if we don't and they don't leave.

[00:14:12] So you know who's going to stick around.

[00:14:15] The people that you're not investing in why do they stick around for a paycheck. They're not there to help you get better you're not investing in them. You know they're they care as much about you as you've demonstrated you care about them.

[00:14:25] I mean it's a culture problems in corporate America crazy. DANIEL HOARE wrote a great book called The Culture Code. Yeah and I wish Dell every senior executive would read it because it's phenomenal.

[00:14:35] Yeah yeah. So that really gets you. That's kind of a player. So you've decided that in order to be successful in order to really leverage your kind of capabilities you need to be working with a players you know these high performance individuals. What else is on your litmus test of when you're speaking with a prospect or a potential client. What do you look for. What are the other characteristics that you look for.

[00:14:55] Well you know we teach people to tease out where they're not real quickly tease out whether or not an opportunity is real name in reality anywhere from 20 to 80 percent of the opportunities that come people's way are fake opportunities. You know it's fake news it's fake opportunities. People are looking for free consulting or they're looking for you to come up with a competing bid. You know it's interesting book that came back in 2011 called The Challenger Sale. And they quantified it. That said 20 every bit of 20 percent of the opportunities that come your way are fake opportunities. Yeah I think that number is actually much higher than that because a lot of people won't admit that they're you know they say they're open to working with you when in fact they're not because of emotional biases that they're unwilling to admit. But so one of the reasons why we increase deal velocity with people that we coach is first of all think how much time you're going to get back if you can if you can tease out the 20 percent of fake opportunities and stop wasting time.

[00:15:55] Yeah. Now I think that's that's one of the huge kind of inefficiencies in most sales funnels and sales price. I mean I do it on the recruiting side too is you know wasting your time with with candidates with prospects that are going to end up just either you qualifying or they qualify themselves out at the end of the funnel and now you've wasted all this time in that process. Right. Right. So sniffing that out early being able to sniff that out early is key.

[00:16:16] Yes. Sniff it out. And then also then consequently do it in a way that actually enhances your relationship with that person. OK. Talk to me more about that because we got to go back to the hostage negotiators monitor that there's no such thing as a one off. You know this if I've run across this person once even if they're actively after free consulting they have no intention of ever paying. Think you know I get to terminate that interaction as quickly as possible but also as positively as possible.

[00:16:45] And it is worthy because they're going to there could be a time in a year or two where they come back to you with a real opportunity.

[00:16:51] Right. Or your or they're going to a friend under Naga and they've got a friend. Negative calm is never never in our favor. Yeah. You know if you act like a jerk if you know people are going to hear about you know I talked to voice over The Black Swan Group and I just wanted information from someone that they really really lousy about those guys a bunch of jerks. I don't need that. You know Lufthansa approaches us because in reality they want to know how we do our stuff so that the provider they currently use for training can duplicate it. And I sniff that out really fast.

[00:17:31] So and So. So how do you sniff it out and then B how do you how do you pivot that or how do you how do you terminate that in an appropriate way.

[00:17:39] You know I you know I say look you know you guys you guys have been great guy provider you you've been working for a long time they're phenomenal. What are you looking us for why would you do business with us. The answer where I know it's a fake opportunity is I say why wouldn't we. I mean it's it's it's so you to sell us so they don't they don't they don't give you a substantive answer.

[00:18:00] I mean I got to say that that's that takes a lot of emotional intelligence to to be able to have that kind of conversation with a prospect that early to almost kind of unsettle or just kind of question. QUESTION The Prospects desire to do business because that's somewhat counterintuitive but at least counter reaction like getting a lead you'd want to be like all over it sure. Yeah. Let's let's talk about everything you were right about everything. Yeah yeah.

[00:18:24] He's a sucker for it.

[00:18:25] I mean that's why the people that we're teaching kill it because we're doing something counterintuitive but we also do it in a respectful way.

[00:18:31] Yeah. So talk to me about the respectful side. How do you make it just how do you not just hang up the phone you know.

[00:18:36] Well I'm going to ask that question early on then I'm gonna ask some confirming questions you know I know what the profile if you will of someone who's never going to hire us looks like yeah so but I'm going to if they say why wouldn't I. What that does is it triggers visioning answers. Now what I've done is I've actually caught them off guard now if they ever had any intention of doing business with me they would have already thought about they'd have an answer. Mm hmm.

[00:19:04] And what I was looking for hostage negotiators what we do is we find out what's in your head and then we use the same set of skills. If there's a deal to be had to get you to take another look to get in there there is no decision without vision. So I got to know what your vision is to start with and then I've got to use this set of skills is what we refer to as tactical empathy.

[00:19:26] I'd tell you why we call a tactical empathy in a minute but I'm going to use a set of skills called Tactical empathy to get you to willingly take another look at things like this.

[00:19:35] I mean I often use the idea of you have to understand the frame like you know figuring out the other person whether it's a management situation or sales or negotiation and figuring out the other person's frame because the problem is is that if you look at their situation with your frame you're bound to make mistakes you're prone to you know value things in the wrong way you're bound to miss factors or facets or concerns or fears. And so you know understanding that other person's frame is kind of key to any of this kind of how to have any kind of connection conversation whether you're negotiating or whether you're just going to manage somebody I management is a form of negotiation at some level you know that understanding that thing and it gets it's you know it's the essence of.

[00:20:12] Q But yeah it is you know you're dead on. Yeah I think you you're you're framing it for me well I like it yeah.

[00:20:18] And frame is a relatively common term of someone who's come to have a good gut instinct for this. I mean you don't really know exactly what it is but in your world all right. So frame the picture frame it indicates perspective. I really need to get into their perspective that's a good term.

[00:20:33] So understanding. Understanding their perspective understanding that frame. So I like this idea that if the way that you can sort of suss out whether or not someone has a real intention of hiring you just to kind of test if they really have a full full thinking around the process and if you're able to determine that oh they haven't they haven't thought about these questions which means they're not approaching it from a real engagement they're imparting it's from a research point of view. That's your tell. That's that's the indicator to you that this is not a viable or real engagement opportunity. But but by asking those questions what you're saying is that you begin to show kind of your power of insight and power of questioning that when they do come up with a real one bill they'll be thinking of you or at least yield they'll have you in mind in a positive way of being hey this is someone I should go talk to.

[00:21:19] Which would send kind of gets us soul to another counter-intuitive approach. We can't get away with a mediocre last impression.

[00:21:26] Now people put all their effort into the first impression because we're scared to death of a bad first impression and then we end up making mediocre last impressions and the last impression is a lasting impression we just screwed ourselves.

[00:21:38] Yeah you know I read across some data pride back in 2008 or so Gallup Organization on how we remember we don't remember based on the way things happen we do not remember chronological. We remember the most intense moment and how it ended.

[00:21:55] Which then really takes the first impression almost entirely away. You know your first impression only needs to not be bad.

[00:22:04] Yeah you don't.

[00:22:05] Don't screw it up right and that there ain't that much effort there.

[00:22:10] The amount of effort that but the amount of effort that's actually put into first impression if you took all that and put it into your last impression you now would build your your deal pipeline your customer pipeline your opportunity pipeline in a massively huge way. And that's how it continues to come back to you. So you make sure that your last impression is really built around all the stuff that you know you willing to kill for and the first impression. You know how much regard you have for them how the fact that you're talking indicates you'd love to have a long term prosperous relationship just take all that stuff from the beginning and at least repeated it.

[00:22:45] You gonna end it all right. So let's talk about tactical tactical empathy. That was your term. Yeah. You know because we just know so much more about how the brain works you know.

[00:22:54] I know what I'm looking for now and I know how to dial up negative emotions and I know how to dial down negative emotions and dial up positive. But the one thing that we know now more than anything else is negative emotions fear of loss is the outsized driver of decision making. Now that seems like well duh of course right. But nobody applies it that way because 70 percent of buy decisions are made to avoid loss when in fact everybody out there is pitching game.

[00:23:24] Yeah yeah I'm going to increase your business by acts I'm going to generate this many more revenues are much more profit.

[00:23:30] Right. Right. But but wait a minute that flies in the face of what we just discussed.

[00:23:35] People are buying to avoid loss not to accomplish gain. And you get a lot of people that say oh I've made a lot of deals pitching game. Yeah but your batting average is is a third of what it should be.

[00:23:45] You know there's there's another fact that's out there is that 50 percent of customers have made up their mind before they talk to a salesperson. Yet no salesperson is close rate is 50 percent of initial contacts. What's wrong with the man. Yeah. I mean there's an astonishing difference there because if a salesperson is closing 20 percent of their initial contacts they're probably the top salesperson in history that company because they're really closing 40 40 percent of possible contacts and you're saying 50 percent the contacts are just off the table they're pre decided.

[00:24:21] Well there's the issue. How many of them have had the decision they made is not going to do business with ICICI because that decision could be either way right but the decision has already been made.

[00:24:31] So what is that decision. But then there's a fair amount of people that called you intending to do business with you and you lost those people. Why did you lose those people. Well there's something that you if you're pitch and gain and they're looking over every salesperson knows you're supposed to look for the pain that's lost. So if that's true why are you pitching game.

[00:24:50] Yeah well so how do we do this without being fear mongering and just negative about it.

[00:24:56] They go in there and then that's the challenge and that's again where you do it by applying empathy first tactically instead of going straight for the throat. You know there's a sequencing issue Bob. Bob the new king is ahead of the program on negotiation at Harvard. I learned a lot from Bob but talked about him the very first part of the book and his negotiation book the second chapter is titled The tension between empathy and assertiveness because we think we have to do one or the other. When in fact the title is is a red herring if you will it's meant to be deceptive because you get halfway through the chapter and you go wait a minute. Bob's not contending this attention

[00:25:37] He's contending that empathy is necessary first to be assertive.

[00:25:43] And most of us when someone's been assertive with us you know it's been blunt force trauma. Yeah we think assertion is combat. And nobody takes it time to assert in a way that the other side can hear you assert you feel slapped around. I would remind you that you know you don't do this you know you're screwed. In sum and substance and sometimes not much more sophisticated than that.

[00:26:06] You know how do you how do you do it in an emotionally intelligent way. You proceed with empathy. It's designed to hit certain parts of the other person's brain first so they can't hear you.

[00:26:17] And so what are some of those parts and what are some techniques. Let's give some examples or some some specifics.

[00:26:23] But first one is it's as simple as tone of voice like if we get it we get a contract it's got to work for higher cause. You know my company doesn't do work for our period for anybody. Does it matter if you are literally if you offered me 20 billion dollars. Yeah because work for hire we lose control of our AI our intellectual property and subsequently our future. So you got to give me enough money to compensate me for the rest of my future if I get a I get a contract or will work for higher cause and I don't call a gap and I say Look Bruce we don't do work for hire let's get clear right now that that would be bad tone of voice bad assertion. Instead I'm going to call you up on the same Bruce I get bad news and I must say it like that and then I'm going to shut the front

[00:27:12] To shut up. I'm not saying so. So what. What's the bad news. Tell me.

[00:27:18] Yeah. They go. And that's exactly what you will do. Now the important part of the dynamic is making sure you don't get caught off guard. Yeah yeah. Catching somebody with bad pay. I can a Bruce. You know have kids today. I mean what's the game last night. You know hey you know I really wish the Lakers could make the playoffs you know when they added you know host of b.s. nonsense. And you sit there wondering you know what's the old by the way here waiting for the shoe to drop. Yeah but that means I'm trying to catch. I'm trying to buddy I'm a catch you off guard and say Bruce you get back there and then I'm not going to proceed to you give me to proceed.

[00:27:54] Permission to proceed. You're not prepped. You got your guard up you're going to appreciate the fact that I let you put your guard up. I said Bruce I'm sorry. We want to try.

[00:28:05] Now there is a there's another thing I did. First thing I did was before I hit you with the bad news I said I'm sorry. Instead of what most people do. Be like combat if you don't do we don't do work for hire I'm sorry.

[00:28:18] I'm sorry came at the end is not as effective. Yeah you need to put it at the beginning.

[00:28:23] There's a big criticism of women in the business world that they apologize too much. You shouldn't say I'm sorry it's not that you shouldn't say I'm sorry. It's where you put it that makes all the difference.

[00:28:34] Fascinating. Meeting most people put out at the end as like I almost I'm sorry to have said this to you as opposed to I'm sorry for what I'm gonna have to tell you right now because I know it may be hard to hear Ryan tell you anyway that two millimeters shift right.

[00:28:48] Yeah it's sequencing and we understand because of experience in high stress negotiations and then the neuroscience it backs it up and in the fact that we practice what we preach most negotiation consultants you go to if you separate them from the university they were attached to they would not exist.

[00:29:08] There's only one other viable consultancy out there that I'm aware of that's done really well it wasn't attached to university in some fashion besides us.

[00:29:16] We wondered why is that. What is the day. What's the dynamic there.

[00:29:19] You know it's a really good question.

[00:29:21] I mean it's absent having a book out what's going to make you want to go to a negotiation consultant. Why have you got a book I thought leadership kind of reputation authority. Yeah. How do you establish yourself as an expert.

[00:29:34] And even if the book is out then if you're a practitioner who's really good at it you probably can't explain it. Yeah. Well you know what we found in applying it and simultaneously explaining it first having to explain to cops was B.S. meters are real high.

[00:29:51] If you're not you know as an FBI agent trying to teach police officers to talk about a hostile environment yeah you know so being able to explain it effectively is something that my companies have started from the beginning this is there's of forms to train three of us were experienced instructors and horses association and a fourth guy is probably the most talented one of the whole crew is my son and he just been dealing with this stuff since he was 2 years old.

[00:30:18] Yes but he's been trained through trial by fire.

[00:30:22] Yeah. I love it. I love it. So let's try it. Let's squeeze in one more what. What else do you see that you know most people kind of get wrong or misstep when it comes to either you know approaching the process of negotiation or the actual negotiation itself. What's another good takeaway for folks.

[00:30:38] Well you know hear the other side out first. You know give them a chance to talk themselves into your deal if you want to go first. You're now taking that opportunity away and then you will win whatever you have to say anywhere from 10 to you know 60 percent of it is going to be perfect for me.

[00:30:58] I want to find out what their percentage is before I proceed. You know I'm not I'm not interested in fighting any battles I don't have to fight. So I'm going to give you the opportunity to win the day if you win with my answers and that ends up being one of the other stuff time savers because now would dial down on what really matters if you go first because you're going to tell me what really matters instead of me having a guess about it.

[00:31:23] Yeah yeah. And I see that one go wrong. A lot of people will get all amped up and they go running into the negotiation and they're like let me let me tell you what we want to do or here's the offer that we have. They just start you know presentation and documents and points bullet points and discussion points and because they worked so hard on it.

[00:31:45] Well they're emotionally invested emotionally invested right.

[00:31:48] It's hard. Having having a little bit of distance from it and just being willing to know that hey this you know it may not work. I think people get caught up into I've got to make it work. Not that often that often a slice. Yeah I'd like it. There's a good chance that we're going to hit Divya. This has been great.

[00:32:06] I've learned a lot. It's been a lot of fun. What if you want to learn more about you about Black Swan What's what's the best way to get that information.

[00:32:12] Subscribe to our newsletter. It's a complimentary newsletter. It's very concise and it's the gateway to everything comes out Tuesday mornings. And it's gateway arch our training. We've got a lot of free products we put a lot of stuff out there that's free. You know I had a friend of mine the FBI used to like to say if it's free I'll take three.

[00:32:34] I love it.

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[00:32:48] Auto correct and put a space between FBI empathy so it's FBI empathy all one word sent to the number twenty two eight twenty eight you get a text box back we'll ask for your email address and it's the gateway perfect I'll I'll make sure that that's on our show notes too so people can can get that yeah I've I've seen it in this letter several times it's great content so if you if you're if you're interested in this topic I highly recommend it and you know certainly check out the website check out the book Never Split The Difference.

[00:33:19] Like I said one of my one of my favorite, Chris this has been a pleasure.

[00:33:22] Thank you so much for taking the time and enjoyed the conversation. Have a good one.

[00:33:21] You've been listening to Scaling up Services with Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt. To find a full is a podcast episodes. Download the tools and worksheets and access other great content. This is a Web site that scaling up services dot com and toll free to sign up for the free newsletter scalingupservices/newsletter.