Safwan Shah, Founder and CEO of PayActiv
Safwan is the Founder and CEO of PayActiv, https://www.payactiv.com a Silicon Valley company that offers employer-sponsored financial wellness to employees. PayActiv is the pioneer of timely Earned Wage Access (EWA), which provides workers on-demand access to earned but not yet paid wages. In 2018, PayActiv increased the purchasing power of workers by an astounding $120M through its EWA function. Businesses that partner with PayActiv see significant cost reductions through increased retention by an average 30%. A win-win for employers and workers, PayActiv delivers timely EWA to Walmart, the world’s largest private sector employer, and hundreds of other businesses that employ lower-income, hourly workers.
AUTOMATED EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:01] You're listening to Scaling Up Services where we speak with entrepreneurs authors business experts and thought leaders to give you the knowledge and insights you need to scale your service based business faster and easier. And now here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.
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[00:00:58] Welcome, everyone. This is scaling up services. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host. And our guest today is Safwan Shah and he is founder and CEO of PayActiv. He's also the author of About Time, which is a book about how we pay our workers in this country. We're going to talk about those things. Safwan, someone, it's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for being on the program. I'm excited to be here. So why don't we start with a little bit of your background. So I know you've been an entrepreneur. You've been in Silicon Valley for a while. Tell us a little bit about your professional background, how you got to pay active, and then we'll talk a little bit about the book and the work you're doing.
[00:01:30] Yes. So by training, I'm an engineer and I have a masters in electrical engineering and design, aerospace engineering. So I am an engineer. I've been in Silicon Valley for almost 24, 25 years now, and I unfortunately never had a proper day job. So I became an entrepreneur very early on. And I would say I became an entrepreneur by accident because it wasn't very easy for me to find a job that I could fit in. And one thing led to another. I became an entrepreneur and maybe six, seven companies that I've been either started or been part of. And most of them didn't go anywhere.
[00:02:15] But then you don't talk about those companies further learning. That's what the testing grounds is, where we learn how to do everything right.
[00:02:23] Failure is just training.
[00:02:26] So but I've been in the financial services are a fintech or payments industry for over 20 years. I passed past previous company was also in payments in Sanaa, which was acquired by another large payments company. And then I kind of had this deep yearning, I would say, to teach.
[00:02:49] And I became an adjunct faculty at High School of Business, University of California, Berkeley. Then I also taught undergrads at University of California at Santa Cruz.
[00:03:03] Then another sort of desire was to go back to school.
[00:03:07] And I went to Stanford for this Stanford executive program that almost eight, nine years ago. And the whole premise was that, you know, I'd been in business all my life, whatever entrepreneurship.
[00:03:21] And I just wanted to know what other far will really a lot of entrepreneurs that I talk to you, you know, never had formal business training. It's funny because it's both kind of this knowledge thing about us, because all those kind of credibility thing, like they worry, they go, oh, I'm running these businesses. I founded these business, but I don't have any formal business training.
[00:03:38] So it's not an uncommon story, I think.
[00:03:41] And maybe I'm a country unique. So I always felt that there is something more.
[00:03:47] And if I knew that, I would do differently or better. And you keep it's like you keep going to the library and looking for a book that you know, all the answers of the intractable problems. But that isn't something you go through and you have to live it.
[00:04:01] Yeah, but this is how I arrived into this current journey, which is, of course, be active. And this was a mission, purpose based company. Is it mission purpose based company? And I took almost two years off doing nothing and didn't really know what I wanted to do and spent a lot of time on a golf course and coffee shops and things like that and wants to do something which was meaningful or substantial or inspiring to me and motivating. And this idea met all the conditions because we are going doing good at the same time, we are building the amazing business.
[00:04:40] And so what is what is the what is the situation, the problem, the the challenge that you're taking on with pay?
[00:04:46] So having been in the payments industry for some time. I had a good idea of the lives of people who are living paycheck to paycheck, but I kind of got fascinated by it around this fundamental notion that why is it that the most powerful and the richest and perhaps the most compassionate country has such a large number of people living paycheck to paycheck? And what does that really mean? Yeah, and Bruce, now, you know, it's come into our public narrative and it's political or, you know, in media that understanding and. Talking about paycheck to paycheck, a bad thing grabbed my attention, and while I was doing nothing, as I like to say, I was thinking about this and this led to this fundamental idea which be active is based on that. There are way too many people in the US living paycheck to paycheck. Granted, we stand back now and US has about 60 percent of its workers who are clock and clock out or any time based hourly time based workers. And so I said that for every two weeks, living paycheck to paycheck, they're earning some money, but they don't get paid for until two weeks have passed. And during that time, between those two weeks are between paychecks. They are getting timing related dings, like penalties, like late fees.
[00:06:09] If your rent is late and got a sixty five dollar fee, if your phone bill is laid, you got a fee and then they are getting hit by overdrafts and they do overdrafts not because they are messed up, but they just don't have the money, not how they got there was not something I could solve. Yeah. Yes. I said the only two things that we focus on. One is how much people are paid or the level of salary. The second thing we focus on is how they are paid, which is structure like taxes and subsidies and so on. But what has been ignored by the world and not just in America and thousands of years, years is when you are paid. Now timing now who decided to weeks or months, Lena? Who decided it? If I ask you one question, they can't come up with an answer.
[00:06:53] It's just the way it is. And somehow waiting to get paid is character building.
[00:06:59] So. But that is interesting. Yeah, that isn't true.
[00:07:02] And this led to the creation of bear activities, you know, double entendre. Be active or activity or pay. Yeah. And and this idea kind of launched the company and I was very fortunate. We were backed by amazing investors. I was an early investor in my own company, assembled a great team. And now we have almost five and a half, six years in this journey. And there's a lot of stories, a lot of things we have learned. And I can go into them if you want me to. Aw, yeah.
[00:07:33] Well, let's talk about it. So let's just frame it a little bit more for folks. I think it's an interesting dynamic, I guess, in terms of businesses. And I it's funny. I think a lot about it. I work with a lot of companies on the kind of the employer side. And when we're kind of managing cash flow and stuff like that. One of the things that comes up a lot as well, how frequently are you paying your people? And, you know, if you're doing every other week or if you're doing once a month, are you doing twice a month? Like all these things kind of factor in a cash flow and you know how when you pay ends up impacting your cash position? Well, there's the flip side, which is what happens with your employees. Know, so if you're paying you know, if you're paying every week versus every other week versus once a month, you're basically an employee, as is is building up a liability or you're building up a liability with an employee and then you're paying that liability off. And so it sounds like what what this is really getting out is, well, the consequence for the employee is that they now essentially have to fund fund that period of time, like they have to sort of invest that week or two weeks or a month before they actually get cash on hand.
[00:08:37] And you want to change that dynamic, make it so that they have better access to the money that they've earned.
[00:08:43] Exactly. You've said it well, and I often summarize it by saying that it's a tradeoff now. And let me give you an example that guys like to make it concrete that we pay our landlord in advance. Yeah, exactly. You rent a place. We pay a landlord in advance. So obviously, landlord has leverage. We pay our vendors upon delivery or we have terms that if we pay you, we're 30 days, 60 days, then these are the terms with it being this much more because you're kind of financing us.
[00:09:14] Yeah. No, you're absolutely. Supplied the material and I won't pay you for 30 days. So here's your our customers pay us as soon as they get it, we give them the service. Yeah. So you paid the landlord in advance. We have terms are upon delivery payments for our vendors. Our customers pay us immediately like if you walk into Starbucks right now.
[00:09:34] Yeah. You don't get a bill and pay it at the end of the month.
[00:09:37] Yeah. They don't get a file it. You know, you've got 30 days to pay if you like.
[00:09:44] The person who's served you. The coffee has to wait two weeks to get paid. So it's kind of.
[00:09:51] So why do we need to take a loan from the least leverage the people with the least leverage the poorest are the ones making on an hourly wage. So that is what I'm kind of questioning that we don't have an advantage. Now, the counter argument is A, have got this cash management. Cash flow treasury function that I do. And if I hold this salary for two weeks, it accrues a variety of benefits to me. If we do the calculation. It is probably a very nominal amount.
[00:10:23] If you use that to build greater engagement with your employees, the return would be in positive return would be in spades. Yeah. Yeah, that's. You've discovered that bigger don't over improves the bigger picture thinking on a longer.
[00:10:38] Well I would say acquisition. I mean, you know, finding talent, being able to bring on talent would be huge. Yeah. You know if you can if you if you show you'd mostly tell somebody that look you're gonna get paid more frequently, you're not going to have to wait two weeks to get paid, that that's gonna make me a much more attractive employer, especially in a in the economy or marketplace where the task based gig worker can get paid on a task and the success of Uber and so forth.
[00:11:08] Assure us that people like to manage their time so they can work when they want and they would prefer. I certainly like to get paid. That's why millions of people are going into the gig economy at large. The U.S. businesses, which need hourly workers are competing with them. Know that? You know. How do you ask an Uber driver who works or drives for Uber for four hours a day to work at Nordstrom?
[00:11:33] Yeah. Behind the counter. Yeah. So these are the two say that three variables. Bruce. There's retention, which many studies at the recent one was at the Harvard Kennedy School study, which we provided data for that it's at least a 20 percent improvement in done over while our data and each employee's replacement cost is somewhere between 2000 to 3000 dollars. Yeah. Because it involves retraining and accepting background checks. So that's the that's a huge impact. The second one is recruitment. We have hundreds of employers that use us and they actually advertise and indeed in other sites. In fact, on their on the job sites with we offer this financial wellness benefit. Now, if it's come into the equation of attracting, the learning element is sky high.
[00:12:25] Then the employer says, you know, finally, finally, Mr. Miss Employer, you understand what my problem is. Otherwise, talking about money is, you know, you don't talk about money at work.
[00:12:39] You don't talk about religion. You don't talk about politics. You don't talk about money. Phyllis, do don't hurt you. You don't talk about money.
[00:12:47] That's like it. The one reason I work here.
[00:12:50] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We're not going to talk about oxygen. I really don't need it. So I'm curious because I think, you know, just thinking through the business kind of challenge, there's the the argument or that the model of I'm going to pay every two weeks. You know, it's kind of a risk mitigator on the on the employer side a little bit. It's like I'm going to you know, I'm going to have two weeks of your performance before I pay you. If I try to go the other way, you know, if I go to the landlord model, it's like, well, I'm going to prepare you for two weeks of work that becomes problematic, you know? So then then you get down to what can I pay you more frequently? The issue there becomes transaction costs. And I don't want to. I mean, as having someone who's run a company and had to run payroll and all that stuff, the idea of running payroll every day would be daunting. However, you kind of structurally addressed this whole kind of like the cash flow gap and the transaction costs. Explain how you're kind of structurally approaching this.
[00:13:45] So the first thing that you pointed out correctly, the first thing is the employer is not very keen to put up their own money. The good news is that not every employee needs access every day. Even better news is that we don't provide everyday access to money and nobody needs it anyway. So what they need is a timely access to money. Now, if, let's say 50 percent of the employees need a portion of their salary on certain days, we don't know which days of the two week they need it. So my company be active puts up front. The funds gonna be go and become a vendor or partner to the employer. We don't go direct to employee. So we are not a lender. So we go to the employer and say we will provide the money that your employees need when they need it. And we have a mobile app which employees can download. We get access to the time and attendance data, which tells us how many hours somebody has work. Hence the book. It's about time. Yeah. And then you go ahead and use that to do all kinds of algorithms. Some people have garnishment. Some people have other challenges. So we have to work around all those and we put a guardrail in it. An employee can access a portion of their salary containable, but it could be 30 percent, 40 percent, 50 percent, 20 percent. Go ahead and take the money. Crump, be active. Be frank. The money, not a change to the employer and employee doesn't even know that that has happened. They may just, you know, tell the employee the benefit is available at the end of the pay cycle, just like every pay cycle. The employer runs the payroll. They look at the different amounts. We send them a file. Details of the file. So whether it is through deduction or be active, directly debited the employee. We take care of the reimbursement to ourselves.
[00:15:35] Got it. So the employer has no additional work moneys coming from us? They are not. Yes. As a vendor, employee had to pay me to be charge a flat fee for two weeks. You can use the service one to three times. That's five dollars. If you're a biweekly payroll and three dollars if you're a weekly payroll gone. But the astounding thing we discovered is that you'd say that everyone would just draw down on all the money they've earned because remember, we're not giving future wages. We're getting already earned. Yeah, even if the person quits doesn't really matter. Because they took money that they would have got anyway. So what happens then is the employee said about 35 percent and we surveyed them and they said no. We said, why do you need this money? It was always about avoiding a late fee or an overdraft, not overdrafts are 35 billion dollars in fees per year now. And then the notorious payday loans are 6 to 7 billion. That's crazy. Some of these will be said or that is the reason.
[00:16:33] So we immediately we've figured out ways on how they should get the money so we can move it to their bank account immediately. You can move it to any prepaid card. And many of them said we're going to pay a bill. So we said, why don't we add bill made to us? So you can access your money and then you can pay our unlimited number of bills, be like a bank for the unbanked.
[00:16:52] Yeah. Interesting way, because that's it. I mean, that's a huge problem as the sort of the unbanked or the unmanageable part of this economy. And and, you know, unfortunately, I mean, I guess it you know, from a financial services point of view, you know, there's certain logic in terms of why, you know, banking those people are so expensive and so then why the fees are so high and all that stuff. But it's a self-perpetuating social issue, right? I mean, the people that don't have access to banking services end up having huge amounts of fees associated with trying to do banking services and they're least able to pay this stuff. So, I mean, at some level, this isn't it's a nice solution. That isn't it's just getting better access at the money that they've already earned and allowing them to kind of use it. And it sounds like what you're saying is that it's it's not that they're using it to avoid some of these problems, some of that some of these high fee situations that come up so that they don't have to incur those charges, which makes it even timing it.
[00:17:48] So what we like to say. And it's very you know, we've articulated this with timely access to earned wages. Now, it's not daily. It's not weekly. It's not. It isn't. I'm you're on demand. Access to on wages control goes to the employee. Now that they have better control, it's like peace of mind. Imagine leaving your home with no money in your pocket and no way to get it. Of course, the payday lending store will be attractive.
[00:18:13] Yeah. So at that time, the access to on wages, then all those services that allow you to save money like bill pay. Like if you had a visa card, you can load it on it so you can buy various things. Now you also added Uber without having an account with Uber. You can use money. You can use 30 minutes off your work. Let's say you mean 20 dollars an hour. You need ten dollars. Yeah. Let's take an example. Yeah. You want to get to work because there is no gas in your car. I mean to you to do so without even having an credit card. You link your odd hours with Uber. So we did that and it's huge. The impact is huge.
[00:18:51] Well, that one's interesting. Yeah. Actually addressing the things that prevent people from being able to get to work and earn the money.
[00:18:56] Exactly. And running out of gas is one of them, believe it or not. Another one is the stress that accumulates if you don't have food or you don't get a backpack for your child. So we then connected Amazon Cash that if you wanted to buy a backpack for your kid and you needed a 30 dollar backpack, it was 20 percent off on Amazon. But you don't have the ability to buy it on Amazon. Yeah, because you don't have a credit card, you don't have a bank account. You go to a corner store, give them cash so they load money to an Amazon account.
[00:19:27] Then the product gets shift. That's a lot of work for you. So we've added that into our app. Yeah. So you can use from the app, it is all those financial services which banks don't think of giving out as you want to get deposits. These individuals don't have money to deposit if they're willing to do many transactions. Now that kind of approach.
[00:19:48] Let's use some of those. I mean, just from a thinking through as a business side, it's almost like factoring my receivables minutes, you know, day by day.
[00:19:55] I need it. I need the cash now for something that somebody owes me in 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. So you get a factoring agreement and you can access that money. You're basically doing that for the employee. On the on the other side.
[00:20:08] Yes. So I'm just charging any interest in things like that. Yeah. Makes it very, very convenient. Yeah.
[00:20:14] Yeah. So I'm kind of curious. So talk us through how you went from kind of this. Idea to actually kind of coming up with the product, getting the product build, getting in the market would have been some of the challenges, obstacles. You know, things that you've had to kind of overcome to make this product actually work and and get an end market.
[00:20:31] So since then restarted in 2011 12, I was thinking about it. That's seven years ago. So there was no one who had even remotely thought of this now, and I'd say it started. Interestingly enough, we never had to pivot. The world came to us eventually. So. So 2013 is the first time we went to live publicly. And it was in New Jersey. Yeah, it was a factory. And we went live and there were a few hundred workers there. And for the first time I heard them say that I don't have a bank account. So I said, how am I going to get the money in the hands of these individuals? Believe it or not, I bought a two thousand dollar A.T.M. machine or a kiosk and I imagine it. Yeah, and it wasn't an A.T.M.. I put two thousand dollars inside it and I gave them a PIN number to take the money. And the CEO was stunned. He says Every month I bring cash here to give advances to my employees because they don't want to lose them. One thing led to another. So this was a big barrier that how do you get the money in the hands of people?
[00:21:35] They didn't have a bank account, didn't have a card. So how do you do it? You literally automated it.
[00:21:40] So that was an automation, but I couldn't put it in machines and A.T.M. networks are not designed. But you can add another transaction just on an A.T.M. just like that. Yeah.
[00:21:51] All the technology today, of course, Walmart is our partner. So if somebody needs cash, they walk into Walmart and pick it up. Give them a pin number and you pick your cash from Walmart. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:02] So there was a there was a regulatory side of it. A.. God knows how many times I've been to D.C. and, you know, meeting the various regulators, et cetera, like Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and Soldier up, then technology was a big. How do you build? So we had to build literally built an entirely new payment infrastructure because we are independent language. We are not only the issuer, but the acquirer. But the rest engine, the are everything because then the rails did not exist. We had a mobile app. We are the kind of the bank because we are funding it. We're also connecting to a fragmented industry, hundreds and thousands of employers. Each one has different payroll system idea, different time in attendance system. You've got to be crazy to take this one off. B to be a pioneer in it. But I never talked about the technological or the regulatory challenges that we are on the right side of technology. I could build we created in a leader.
[00:23:08] It was really about the life of that twelve dollars an hour. And how we could bring a smile there.
[00:23:18] It's literally a crazy way to build a company, but I think it's the right. Yeah.
[00:23:22] Well, I think it's certainly a the right way in approaching something like this because you really have to think logically. I'm sure when we're to sit down with you, when you originally had the idea, they would sort of say you're crazy like like trying to do this two years ago. Yeah. And so talk to me about the challenges now, like as as you've gotten traction, as you've been building the company. Where are the big challenges is if you're getting capital to fund, you know, fund this stuff. Is it talent? Is it getting into the right employers? Where are you seeing the challenges? What are you what do you really focused on right now?
[00:23:57] I think scaling is not an easy task and scaling. And in a market where there is confusion and land grab is harder. Right. The fast follower always has an advantage on the pioneer, whether it's Google or Facebook. Are fast followers. Even Apple in its iPhone is a fast follower. So fast followers benefits. So the challenge for a company like us, which pretty much built all the pieces which come together, the regulatory, the technological, the pricing, all those things had to be created from scratch. And for somebody else, if I started a company in, you know, early age or some daily whatever.
[00:24:39] So if I did this today, it would take me no time. So how do you create barriers so that so you can do two ways. You can become you know, you could have some proprietary thing, but there's nothing proprietary and baby being people's wages, you get a few.
[00:24:56] So what do you do? So these are the kind of things we think about that. What are we? So we see ourselves as a financial wellness company and we see ourselves as the American Express for the poor. We see ourselves as bank for the unbanked. Now, that swath of people needs many things. Access to money is just one piece of our lives. They need better auto. Loans may be better. Credit products then the plan borrow, spend, save. All those things matter to them. So they need it for one key that works. They need a retirement account that works. So we are seeing ourselves as a company which will provide all those things to them over the next year and decade. That is how we go from, you know, several million dollars in revenue to being a very large good company.
[00:25:49] Now, millions there are 100 million people who need this.
[00:25:53] You know, it's a significant percentage.
[00:25:56] And then we're like, you know, Netflix without the content cost, we charge them a fixed fee every month for the financial services and we charge them one dollar dollars a five dollars or ten dollars a month. 10 million people use it. That's significant.
[00:26:10] Yeah. So I'm sure I know you've engaged in this and started this company because of the impact you wanting to have on people. Can you share one or two good stories of some of the benefits or the you know, how this has actually helped people with day to day challenges, struggles, how this has made an impact on people's lives?
[00:26:28] Yes, there are many videos that have now been made with users of our service employers deploys of our service, and few friends come out each time. The peace of mind. The fact that I had access to this money was extremely no. It made me feel relaxed on reducing stress if you had to go. So the psychological effect that two types of effect proves that we can calculate in life to measure the effect and the psychological effect. Know we will always gravitate towards the measured effect, 23 percent reduction in that. And I always say, really, what do you mean by only 3 percent? Because anyone can come up with anything that's going from two to two point two can be a. So that is always the measured effects. First sight if you measured effect. No, sir. Last year we moved 1 billion dollars into the hands of lower income employees. While significant. No. Yeah. Several hundred thousand users used us. We had a very fortunate company. We have, you know, several hundred employers, maybe 500 plus employers who use us. Walmart uses earned wage access from pay active and many, many other major companies. So these are measured impact, get moving a billion dollars and so forth and 150, 200 dollars at a time. So these are the avoided some studies say that we avoided 120 million dollars in fees. Wow. Helped avoid. So typical person can lose about 200 dollars every month because a 35 dollar overdraft to late fees, one payday loan, a couple of other transactional fees balance below fifteen hundred six dollars a month. Now, if you add it all together and the average lower income worker is losing two hundred dollars a month. Now, if you put two hundred dollars back in their pocket because they have earned it, but they are using it to not, you know, cost them goods or whatever. Now, if that is what's happening, you just gave a few hundred thousand people a seven percent raise. This is a stimulus to the economy.
[00:28:37] So that is type of the measured impact and the psychological impact. So much of this is kind of needless suffering. This money is not helping the employer.
[00:28:47] Well, how does a few million dollars, which are earning 1 percent in bank account, help the employer if they have it? I mean, if they don't have it, let's say it's a small business. That's a different matter. But if they have it, if they are allowed this kind of a service, it's only going to make the employees happy. So there are many statistics now. We did a NPS net promoter score. We do it all the time. And we asked the question that would you recommend a colleague to this workplace? And it's astounding. It's 84. These are NPS is usually single digit or native. I mean, that Apple has an NPA of 60. So. So these are good hot out hard metrics that we are discovering. It is definitely making an impact and very, very, very happy to do that. Yeah.
[00:29:37] So for listeners, what type of company should really consider this? Do you see that there are certain industries or type of company level of company that that really should look into this tool?
[00:29:48] So I have a stated objective that anyone who has an hourly worker is welcome. I don't want to say that. And you know, anyone who was a business leader like yourself or who talks about scaling, you'd always say, oh, how could you do that? But. But I want to. You have five employees or one point five million. I'm my customer is your hourly worker. So anyone who has hourly workers, we've really tried to. Of course, there are different ways that we engage with very. All companies and midsize and large size we have. So anyone who has hourly employees and they ask for advances or you can see that that is workplace financial stress. Yeah. You and I would say in the US, 80 million people are living as hourly workers, about 40 percent of the population, over 100 million is paycheck to paycheck. Yeah, I can assure you, if you walk down the street from where you're located, every business kind of needs it or they're doing it just in an informal way. Yeah. Helping their employees. Yeah. So that's the way I think about it. So yeah.
[00:30:57] And if people were to find out more information about you about pay active, how how would they get that.
[00:31:02] So it's B active W W W doc B active. It is without an E because A B.A. Y SETI the dot com are going to earn wage access.
[00:31:13] Dot com are timely. We have all because we crafted all these need.
[00:31:18] They all are. That's the best way to reach us. If you Google our name, you will find hundreds and thousands of links about what we've done, end user stories and testimonials and so forth. Excellent.
[00:31:33] I'll make sure that those links are in the show notes so people can click through. I find this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking some time with me today. And great work you're doing. You know, lots of lots of kudos to you. And I'm curious to see how things play out. Thank you so much.
[00:31:49] You've been listening to Scaling up Services with Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt. To find a full is a podcast episodes. Download the tools and worksheets and access other great content. This is a Web site that scaling up services dot com and toll free to sign up for the free newsletter scalingupservices/newsletter.