Steve Gordon, Founder, The Unstoppable CEO™

Scaling Up Serivices - Steve Gordon

Steve Gordon, Founder, The Unstoppable CEO™

Steve Gordon is the author of Unstoppable Referrals: 10x Referrals, Half the Effort, and his latest book, The Exponential Network Strategy. He’s the host of The Unstoppable CEO Podcast and has written over 400 articles on marketing for service businesses. Through his firm, he helps service business entrepreneurs create leveraged marketing systems so they can spend less time on business development, and more time on what matters most.


[00:00:01] You're listening to Scaling Up Services where we speak with entrepreneurs authors business experts and thought leaders to give you the knowledge and insights you need to scale your service based business faster and easier. And now here is your host Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt.

[00:00:22] Are you a CEO looking to scale your company faster and easier. Checkout Thrive Roundtable thrive combines a moderated peer group mastermind expert one on one coaching access to proven growth tools and a 24/7 support community created by Inc award winning CEO and certified scaling up business coach Bruce Eckfeldt. Thrive will help you grow your business more quickly and with less drama. For more details about the program, visit . That’s E C K F E L D T. com / thrive

[00:00:57] Welcome, everyone. This is Scaling Up Services. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host. And our guest today is Steve Gordon. Steve is an author. He's written The Unstoppable referals or Unstoppable referals. He's also written The Exponential Network Strategy Master in helping service businesses grow masters in helping figure out how to get referrals, how to grow business. This is a perfect podcast for this audience. I'm really excited to have this conversation with Steve, learn about his background, how he learned to be a master at this. He wasn't always. I'll give you a hint. And then we're gonna talk about what leaders can do in service based businesses to increase their sales, increase their success on developing revenues, getting the word out there, getting more business. A key part of growth and successfully scaling a business with that. Steve, welcome to the program.

[00:01:42] Hey, Bruce. Thanks for having me. There's going to be a lot of fun.

[00:01:45] Yeah. So I know I must say, I would say probably 90 percent of the business leaders that I talk to. You hate business development in general. The other 10 percent love it. And there's very few people in between. Let's talk about your background first, because I think that's a it's it is a fascinating background about how you even just got into this whole categories, whole subject of sales and marketing and referrals and how to build business. And then we could talk about what you do now. I love the content. You've developed, the books, the podcast, lots of good nuggets. But let's start with with you in your background. Tell us the story.

[00:02:17] Well, first, I'm a little disappointed you gave away my secret. You said I wasn't always good at this referral and business development. You know that that blew my cover. Nobody ever starts off exactly good at that. We didn't come out of the womb. And I certainly didn't either.

[00:02:35] So my background, I I went to college and got a technical degree, really tiny, a little discipline of engineering, probably nobody ever has ever heard of. Tell Joe Mattox. Yeah. If you've ever used Google Maps to get somewhere, then you can thank somebody who has that kind of educational background. I was a tent employee at the farm I went to work for at a college and a small firm. At the time it was just a local firm and didn't realize it at the time. But I had been hired as the exit plan for the founder and he kind of took me under his wing and mentored me. And I was really, frankly, just plain lucky to have that opportunity. And for four years after getting there, he's called me and said, you know, I was actually at home with my wife and right after the birth of our first daughter. And he said, yeah, when you come back, you're gonna take over.

[00:03:27] Like, what are the keys? Yeah. No, seriously. So it was great.

[00:03:34] We had a great kind of 10-Year transition. And I learned a ton in the process, but we didn't have any real marketing process. You know, Owen. Some days and other days I wouldn't. And we didn't really know why it would one day and not the not the next. So that's kind of how I got started.

[00:03:49] Yeah. So out of a trial by fire, out of necessity, you know, is kind of unfortunately or fortunately they get, you know, a lot of a lot of business owners, a lot of business leaders end up in that situation. Just one day they kind of wake up and they realize they're running a company. They own a company. They've got mouths to feed.

[00:04:03] They've got business to maintain. I guess what were some of your first steps? I mean, how did how did you go about training yourself or learning about this profession? And I guess how do you maybe a little bit about how you distinguish between sales and marketing? What do you think works for some of these service based businesses? Talk us through kind of your progress and your journey on this.

[00:04:22] Well, so when I started try to learn all of this, it was really back at the very early days of the Internet. And so, I mean, now it's so much easier. I mean, you have podcasts like this that you can listen to and and learn things. So I went to the Barnes and Noble and bought a big, thick book called The Portable MBA in Marketing. Oh, yeah. And like about 10 times trying to make sense of it. It didn't make any sense to me. And it was really geared at, you know, big corporate, you know, B2B kind of marketing, which, you know, I've learned over the years that that selling a service is very, very different, particularly a service where, you know, at the end of the day, you're the product or, you know, you and the team of leaders are looked upon as the product. You know, clients want contact with you. It's just a different environment because you have to not only sell them on this transformation that they need, but then you've got to, you know, go in the back room, change in your Superman outfit, come out and. The authority that they need that they'll listen to, you know, so that you can sort of diagnose their problem, prescribe a cure and hopefully implement the cure for them. That's a difficult thing to do. If you use a lot of the sales tactics that are taught to people in product businesses that are perfectly appropriate in product businesses. But when you're the product as well as the sales person, you've got to be you've got to take a little bit of a different approach. Some of those products sort of sales tactics and techniques can really kind of erode the trust that you need to have later to be that trusted advisor to the client.

[00:05:53] Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's almost that kind of comedy skit where the person that sits you at the table, you know, turns around and comes out as the waiter comes around, turns out to be the chef, turns around.

[00:06:04] You know, it's like you end up having to do everything. You have to sell it. You have to deliver it. You have to service it. And that does create a different dynamic. Guess how much of you found or just talked to me a little bit about the difference between kind of the logical kind of tactics, strategies like the things that you do and the way you think about it versus the kind of the mindset and what you've notice about what successful marketers or successful sellers do from these service based businesses. What do they need to do above and beyond sort of the tactics like that? OK, well, here's here, the techniques. What's the inner game that they that you find is common or at least inner games that you find successful for service base sellers?

[00:06:41] Well, I think the first big mindset shift, because I think the the mindset piece has to proceed. You know, all of the what do I do? You know, the tactical stuff, the mindset shift has to be that marketing is really my primary focus in the business. And for a lot of professionals, you know, they they've been educated. It's been all this time getting whatever credentials that they needed. They've built the business up. They probably are in the business because they fell in love with the work that the business delivers.

[00:07:14] But, you know, I think it was Peter Drucker that said there's two functions of a business marketing and innovation. And as the leader of the business, those are your two roles. You own those. And and so marketing is is critical, you know, and sales, I think, is really the culmination of marketing. If you do your marketing well, you've pre-sold prospect. So, you know, we tell our clients that they're there, really three sales that have to get made and you need to start kind of beginning to think about it in this way. And the three sales are the very first one is that the prospect recognizes and buys into the fact that they have a problem and that there's a solution out there. Right. Because I see a lot of particularly in service businesses, people running around with this idea that there's you know, they know that there's an optimal way to do something. And, you know, God bless them for believing in that. But sometimes I see them running around, you know, trying to convince people that don't either don't know that they have a problem or don't care that they have that problem that they need to fix it.

[00:08:14] And so that's the first sale you've got to make is you've got to you've got to sell them on the idea that they have a problem and that there is a solution. The second idea that you've got to sell them on is that you're their guy or you're their gal, because that eliminates all other competition. And if you can do that before you're across the table from them, life kits infinitely easier. You don't have to be a master salesperson. And then, of course, the third sale is the one where we, you know, exchange money and that's the one most pay any attention to. But if you can do if you get into the mindset that that I'm going to focus my time to go out and and market my business and we can talk about what that is, you know, and can I get deeper on that, but that I'm going to spend my time to market my business to that I've made those first two sales before I'm ever across the table in a sales conversation with the prospect. Then business is going to be just an easy game for you.

[00:09:04] Yeah, well, and I like that idea because I see so many, so many companies or so many sellers, you know, whether they're founders or director of Sale or, you know, CEOs who they just want to get in front of people. And, you know, they're getting in front of people, like you said, that that don't even either don't don't have the problem, don't see the problem that the seller thinks they have or don't doesn't. They don't care about that little problem right now is that this is about their most important drama. Then it's not their biggest problem. And they don't want to spend time and energy. And now you're wasting. You're the one true limited resource that you have, which is your time in front of folks that are not going to buy. Right. They're just not qualified folks for you to be talking to. So I think this idea of doing these other two first or selling these other two things before you even get in front of someone. So how do we do that? What's what's the process for being able to make sure that the people you sit in front of already pre-sold on your first two first two sales objectives?

[00:09:54] Well, you you got to begin by kind of empathizing with that future client of yours. What what are they going through yet to understand their world? And I think that's really difficult for a lot of us to do. I know it was hard for me for a long time. I could see my end of that selling process. And what I wanted to get out of it. But I didn't really understand how potential client viewed it. And it wasn't until I really got clear on that that we started really making. Progress both in my first business and in our current business, and so that's really, I think where it has to start. You have to be able to empathize with with what they're dealing with, not just as it relates to the thing that you're trying to sell to them, the service that you're going to deliver. But you've got to empathize with the whole person. That is your prospect because you may be just a small part of their world and you've got to come to grips with the fact that you're not the most important person there. I think that's actually a good way to look at it. You go into it knowing, OK, well, I've made contact with this prospect and I'm number 50 on their list in or a priority.

[00:10:56] And I've got to now earn my way up the list by being valuable. And so. So I think if you kind of approach it with that mindset and then once you do that, that will begin to illuminate for you how you need to communicate with them, what information you need to share with them, how you need to educate them leading up to them being ready to do business with you. The the thing a tactical thing that makes all of that really easy. And it's the one thing that I have to drag most of our clients kicking in strict screaming towards, and that is getting focused on a a single type of ideal client. You know, call it snitching, call it target market, call it whatever you want. There's just tremendous resistance to that. And so that'll make it easier, because now you're not trying to communicate with and and understand and decipher what a whole range of people might perceive and what their experiences and how to educate them. You can actually get focused enough that you can make a difference. And you'll have your breakdown how we go through that. But that's kind of the first, I think key tactical shift is to get really clear who you're trying to to work with.

[00:12:06] Yeah. You would take it one step farther. And when we look at overall kind of the overall challenges of scaling businesses, not only does getting really focused on who your core customer is in terms of sales and marketing, but actually from, you know, operations, from delivery, from service design to building, like all these things become so much easier when you start to really zero in on a particular core customer, Eretria customer, because now, you know you know, you're not trying to create 15 different versions of everything. You can just focus on the on the one main scenario and the one main type of customer that has this particular type of problem that you're solving for like everything in the business becomes easier. So this not only helps the sales side, it actually helps delivery every other personally.

[00:12:49] So how you know, I'm curious how.

[00:12:51] Walk us through that process or the stages of helping a company identify who their target customer or who their core customer is.

[00:12:59] Well, I mean, the first and biggest one, honestly, is getting the the business owner, getting the entrepreneur to believe that they can focus because the fear, you know, fear gets in the way. And I've been doing this long enough. You know, I've been doing this now almost a decade. And I know that it is a. Even though I don't believe it's a warranted fear, I believe that it is a real fear on the part of almost every business owner. And the fear is that if I focus on a single group of people, then I'm somehow giving up lots of other opportunity elsewhere. And theoretically, yes, there is a market that is so small that it won't support your business.

[00:13:40] But I have yet to worry about that when we can to broaden a little bit. But I will worry about that. Why, sure.

[00:13:47] Well, the other thing I tell people is, look, if you've got a potential client coming at you waving money with, you know, the check is already written out in your name and it's got a lot of zeros on it to make you happy. Cash the check.

[00:13:57] Exactly. I mean, we're not talking about turning business away.

[00:14:02] We are talking about is giving a focus to your marketing so that you can actually stay sane and you can make progress. And it's it's so funny because when we finally get them over this hump and it usually takes us about thirty or forty five days to really get them honed in and believing in it and begin to kind of start rolling it out. A switch goes off in their brains and they start seeing opportunities to connect with the exact type of people that would be best for them to have as clients. And all of a sudden, like they were blind to these opportunities, they were all right around them within reach. But the minute that we get that focus and they buy into it, all of a sudden it's like we just lit a match under them and they're just going to zoom because that focus allows them to work so much more quickly.

[00:14:46] Yeah, it's just that that pattern identification and, you know, get a getting that particular activation part of your brain, just thinking about where can I find more things that look like this? You know, you do that well, you make a fairly specific pattern to look for. And yeah, it starts coming up all over the place.

[00:15:03] Really, when you get around, we just we just took a new client through this and he's got a consulting business and he was going his target market was sort of the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker. Any business that, you know, was in business was a good candidate for him. And we he had a really compelling story. And e commerce, he had run a successful e-commerce business before it had gotten into some trouble, he had turned it around. And the minute that we kind of connected those two dots and he got focused on that market. We're helping him produce a podcast. And so he immediately started booking podcast guests. Well, he booked was at about a week. He booked nine guests for his yet to be released podcast. He's kind of doing interviews ahead of time. Well, seven of those nine. He was able to book webinars where he is now going to use those as lead generation.

[00:15:49] He's gonna go get the opportunity to speak to the audiences of those seven people. So he's going to and he's already started doing some of these. I mean, he's getting appointments out of it. He's generated just within about a week, a couple hundred leads, you know? Yeah. You know, he it's magic. It's worked was. Yeah. He was stalled for a couple of years before.

[00:16:06] Yeah. And what are some of the other challenges that you've seen in terms of, you know, helping people identify their core customer, their target market? I mean, what are the roadblocks that you typically run into or their clients run into in terms of making some of those decisions?

[00:16:20] You know, the biggest one is just not having the courage to get specific enough. The tendency is is to want to fudge it. And even as we narrow down, it's still I wanted to keep it a little a little too big when you can narrow it down to where you can really clearly and crisply articulate the real pain that those people are facing. And it is a real pain that, you know, that they recognize. You mean our major jobs so much easier. And and that's I think the big thing is, is really trying to get that that circle drawn tightly enough around there. A group of people, some other challenges that run into that will we'll run into with these that will cause us to tweak and and adjust the definition. You know, if it's a group of people that are particularly hard to reach for whatever reason, that might not be a good target market for you. And there are groups of people that are just hard to reach. You know, it's it's rare that we find that, but we have run across that in the past. And so sometimes it's just a little tweak or a pivot to a slightly different but related group can make all the difference.

[00:17:22] And once a company has figured out their target audience or their target customer or customer, what what are some of the sort of strategies that you help them or that you suggest they look at?

[00:17:32] Is this content marketing or you doing SEO? Or are you like, what are the what are the tools that people can use once they figure it out there? There are targets in terms of actually marketing to them the right sort of message. Right offers so that you can, you know, effectively reach them and convert them down the sales process.

[00:17:51] So I believe in focusing your marketing investments and whether that's an investment of time, energy or money on things that aren't likely to change in the near-term. Right now, marketing is going through dramatic and rapid change. And that, you know, so you mentioned SVO is great, but we turned generally tell our clients don't invest a lot of time there. Let's let's create things where we'll get SVO as a strategic byproduct. But let's not make that our focus because you can't control what Google will do next. Know the days of being able to game the system are gone. And and so we don't know when the next change is going to come that will change that game.

[00:18:32] The same thing can happen with all of the online advertising platforms now. You know, if I'm not saying don't use them, we don't tell our clients, don't use them at all. But just understand that once you get into the machine that is Facebook or Google ads, be ready to be in a constant state of change in how you market. And so we like to build a foundation on things that don't change. We start with getting, like I said, getting really clear on who that ideal client is. From that, we build what we call a Target 100 list. So we'll go out and create a list. It might be 50. It might be 100 hundred or maybe a hundred fifty target clients. And what we generally advise our clients is, you know, and for most service businesses, that's a good number to have as a working list. If you've always got around 100, give or take, that's probably all the lead you can handle at any given time.

[00:19:18] And now these are 100 these are 100 companies or a hundred hundred names of people and companies. What is this hundred list consist of?

[00:19:24] Generally it's gonna be one hundred names of distinct clients. So maybe you call it buying units. So it could be it could be distinct companies if there were three or four sales opportunities within a large company. You might include each of those as as a separate one.

[00:19:41] I mean, don't get offices or different divisions that those could be different units, but they could.

[00:19:47] Sure. You know, don't get too caught up into the details if you've got roughly around 100 people that you're doing some very focused marketing on. Then, you know, you should be fine. And so from there then we work with our clients to build a platform, a media platform, typically a podcast, so that they've got a place to invite people from that list. And we we use a process we call podcast prospecting, where we actually will go out and invite those potential clients or people who can refer us to potential clients onto a. Fast do an interview like this. Build a relationship without any of the pressure of sales. So that the next time you place a call to that person, they know you. They like you. They trust you. They'll answer the phone. They'll respond to your email. And at the same time we're doing that, we're creating really great content that will nurture all of those people and anyone else that's in your database and then your network. And it'll help position you as a market leader and an influencer in that market. Yeah. So we we we use that to kind of get the most bang for the buck because most of our clients don't have any more bandwidth, you know, within their calendared to be able to do more marketing. So all they gotta do is show up and have two or three or four of these conversations each month with people that they ultimately want to do business with and start these relationships.

[00:21:01] So it's a very efficient way to do it. So we start there. Yeah, because you accomplish a lot right there. You get some prospecting done and you get this evergreen concept that you need to be able to nurture these relationships. And we also get positioning done that we look at. OK, how are we gonna convert these people into a sales process? How are we going to educate them? And the next thing we want to put in place is a presentation that is designed to get a prospect to commit a focused amount of time where they can get deeply educated on the problem that they've got. And the solution that's available. And then we give them a next step, which is to book an appointment with you or with, you know, someone at your company. And so then that can be delivered either as a you know, it on demand video on your website, as a on demand webinar, a live webinar, an in-person seminar you can deliver at any number of ways. But once we've got that built and it's a single presentation so we can begin to track the performance of it and improve it over time. Now we've got a way for people to come into a sales conversation into your your more one on one sales process, and they're educated at the end of that. They should be pre-sold to the point that you're their guy or you're their gal.

[00:22:12] And talk to me about how you kind of focus or identify issues, topics to weave into this content. And then the things that you you develop the presentations around as early insights or strategies that you've seen that work well in terms of, you know, finding the pain points or the hot topics or the, you know, the issues that are most kind of at the top of the audience's list in terms of challenges they're grappling with that are going to court, that are going to drive engagement, drive sign ups and stuff. How do you how do you do that?

[00:22:41] Most of the time, you know, the business centers that we're working with, they know. I mean, they because they're working with the clients. And if, you know, if it's a larger company and they don't know, usually we can talk with salespeople or with some of the folks who are our leading fulfillment and actually solving problems once somebody becomes a client. I mean, all this information is it's there and it's within your organization and it might be within your head, but sometimes it's very difficult for you to see what's valuable and what's not. And that's that's one of the things we hear from clients over and over again. It's like they knew it all, but they needed somebody to look at it from the outside objectively to identify which pain points were gonna be most valuable. And, you know, and then how to organize all of that. So we take them through a process where we will, you know, we'll get them to document what they think the pains are. And then we'll spend about 90 minutes on a call, really kind of diving deep into each of those areas, understanding how, you know, how they actually deliver a solution there and what the results ultimately are. And by the end of that, we'll usually have a pretty dialed in picture of of what the pain points are and and then how to message those.

[00:23:47] You know, I like this because it creates a system, right. It's a it's a tool that can be used again and again. I love the idea that you can improve it, that you can you can take the feedback you're getting. Look at the data you're collecting around it. Fair, what's working, what's not. When are people dropping off? You know, how can I keep people on longer testing different versions of things? I mean, now you've got something that's a real asset rather than something that, you know, is just a one and done kind of marketing. You know, a marketing tool is really a system that has has a life that you can you can extend.

[00:24:18] Yeah. And that's really you know, that is our whole focus when we work with the companies. We want to build for them a system that they're not going to have to really significantly alter for the next decade. And once it's in place, they can enhance it. You know, once we've built the basic system, if they want to enhance it with things like like ads or MCO or anything else to drive more people to it, great. That's fantastic. But the Base Foundation is going to be unchanged.

[00:24:44] Yeah. You know, the other one I wanted to kind of get your opinion on or ask is this certainly I've found as I've gotten more focused on in the work that I do with the types of clients that I work with, even if I end up meeting somebody who is not in my target, the fact that I'm a so specific and my target. I would say, you know, nine times out of ten, eight times out of ten, they will make an introduction. So even though that person is not necessarily my perfect target, they're like, oh, you know what, you should talk to Bob.

[00:25:10] Because, Bob, it seems like really the kind of person, you know, that would benefit from talking to you.

[00:25:14] And so this whole well, I want to I want to be able to sell everything to everyone, you know, even even if you're. Getting introduced or were you're talking with someone who is not your market still being focused can serve you well because it helps with that referral side of it. I'm just kind of curious how that's come up for you and how you've seen that play out and the clients you've worked with.

[00:25:31] Yeah, I mean, everything everything improves with specificity. I mean, that what you just described happens all the time. And, you know, the other thing that I think is is most fun to watch with this is when we're working with someone who has been kind of taking every kind of client that will come along. And it's been driving him crazy when they begin to focus and realize that by focusing the number of different types of problems they're trying to solve. Now has shrunk down. Yeah. You know, and they're actually able to to create some really innovative solutions and they're having fun doing it. And all of the headaches that they had trying to deliver to all of these different types of clients begin to go away. You know, it improve, but it improves everything. I mean, you'll get you'll get referrals like that. You'll get introductions to influencers, you'll get introductions to go and speak at conferences where that specific type of prospect goes because you're now for them when before you work for anybody. It's not that you work for everybody. You work for anybody.

[00:26:35] Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:26:37] So tell me more about when you engage with clients. How does your process work? What how do you kind of work them through getting clarity?

[00:26:44] Building the system would tell us about what it would be like to work with you and how that engagement structured.

[00:26:50] Yeah. So, I mean, everybody would like to do everything all at once. But I think Albert Einstein said God created time so that everything didn't happen all at once. You know, Rome wasn't built in a day. And we like to look at this whole process in phases, because as you implement parts of this, you're going to get you're going to learn more and you're going to better understand your market. And those are things we'll plug in. So when we work with someone, we take them through a process we call the growth audit, which is basically looking at that, all of their messaging, their current marketing Web site in the email, marketing, social media, anything that they're doing, print, whatever it is. And we're looking for a few things where no one looking to see do they have a clearly defined ideal client? And if not, we're gonna take them through a process during that audit to get there. Do they have a clearly defined offer? Because that that's to me. If you get those two things right, that's probably 80 percent of the battle in business is getting that target market and the offer. Correct. And a lot of things can get taken care of right then and there. And then we you know, we'll go through and basically make make recommendations and essentially write a prescription for based on where you are.

[00:27:56] Here are the biggest priorities for you to address going forward. And and then from there, we'll start to map out a an implementation plan with the client. Typically, probably 90 percent of our clients don't have any mechanism for following up with anyone that comes into their world that isn't ready to do business today. So the first thing we'll want to put in place is some type of media platform and probably nine times out of 10, that's a podcast just because it's easy for the entrepreneur to execute on their offer. Right. Anything they can just talk and have a conversation. And because we can use it in so many different ways. I mean, it kind of checks the box for content for your social media, checks the box for your MCO and content marketing. It checks the box because we do email marketing off of a relationship building and prospecting referrals because we can interview referral partners. So we get a lot done right there. So that's usually the first thing because the low hanging fruit are the people that are already in your world that you've just ignored. And often we can reactivate them fairly quickly if we can warm them up with a little bit of content very quickly after that put in place that presentation and then begin to invite them to that presentation. There's almost always some hidden clients that just they want to do business with you, but they don't quite know enough or know how to take the next step.

[00:29:12] And and so we can get things going that way once those things are in place and we've got a sales process that's working in a lot of times when we work with a firm, particularly if it's a smaller firm and the founder, the owner or the principal isn't real confident it's selling or they don't have a process for it. One of the things we'll help coach them through is how to get a sales conversation. That's easy. That feels authentic. That's not it doesn't rely on them being a master salesperson. Yeah, you know, and get that in place. And then once we've got all of those pieces, then we'll go back and look at, OK, now we've got a system to receive leads. Let's go now. Pump leads into it. Yeah, I like that. You know, we usually start with referral and kind of we have a concept we call the attention ladder. We start folks off on on referrals, get those scaled up. A lot of times that's everything that the business needs stuff. We need to go beyond that. Then you can get into paid media, whether it's direct mail or print or online or whatever. And from there go into PR, you know.

[00:30:08] Excellent. See if people want to find out more about about your systems, about your podcasts, about the books. What's the best way to get more information?

[00:30:17] Bruce, we've actually set up a page just for your listeners. And if they go to unstoppable CEO dot net slash s U S, they can get free copy of my latest book, The Exponential Network Strategy, which actually talks about how we use interviews to go out and build referal relationships and and connect with prospects. And so you can kind of get that step by step process there and they can find me at unstoppable CEO dot net.

[00:30:42] Perfect. See, that's that perfect lead for people to get to. I love that you personalize it. Smart move and encourage everyone who's interested in this, who's looking to grow there, grow their business, scale their company, go check this out.

[00:30:53] I think the marketing and sell side is often the most difficult one. And Steve makes it easier. So grab that content, learn how to do that. Steve, thank you so much for taking the time today. I really appreciate it. Lot of great tips in here. Valuable, valuable stuff. So thanks for coming on.

[00:31:08] Hey, thanks for having me, Bruce. It's been fun.

[00:31:11] You've been listening to Scaling up Services with Business Coach Bruce Eckfeldt. To find a full is a podcast episodes. Download the tools and worksheets and access other great content. This is a Web site that to sign up for the free newsletter at